Lodge 489

Just got back from Philmont.  Only heard of one bear siting during our trek.  A young male (around 250 pounds) was caught in Base Camp and transported up to the Baldy Town area and released.  The next afternoon if showed up at Copper Park where we were camping.  It was wandering around the meadow area east of the campsite where the trails from French Henry and Baldy Town come into camp.  Our sister crew was coming into the meadow from Baldy Town and saw the bear.  They got together and "looked big" - started yelling and screaming at the bear.  The bear was about 25 yards away and just stared at them.  All of the sudden another crew came into the meadow from the French Henry trail and ended up about 10 yards from the bear.  The boys all started screaming bloody murder and they took off running in one direction and the bear took off running in the other direction.  No harm except for the scared boys on the F.H. trail.  We never considered carrying bear spray and probably wouldn't - however, do whatever makes you feel comfortable and safe.  Have a great trek.

Just finished a trek at Philmont and wore Buck Naked - worked great!  

At the District Round-table this month I heard two Scoutmasters and a Unit Commissioner get into a lively discussion about a young Life Scout. From what I understand he is twelve years old and just passed his Board of Review for Life last month. His Scoutmaster was telling the other Scoutmaster and UC that there is no way that he is going to let this boy earn his Eagle until he is 15 years old. He said that the boy will probably have all of his merit badges and Eagle Project completed by the end of next Summer when he is 13 years old. However, he said that he will never check him off on his Scoutmaster Conference or recommend him for Eagle until he's almost 15, so that his Eagle Court of Honor won't be until he's 15.

 

I butted in the conversation and asked him if he had told the boy this and he said no - that he would keep "failing" him on the Unit Leader Conference requirement until he was older. The other Scoutmaster and the Unit Commissioner both agreed that there is no way that a 13 year old boy should be an Eagle Scout and that their had to be some way to keep them from obtaining it even if they met all of the qualifications. Their reasoning was is that it wouldn't be fair to the 13 year old - that the older Eagle Scouts wouldn't respect him for earning it while he was so young. They looked at it as if they were doing him a favor by holding him back until he was 15.

 

First off, I have never heard of a boy earning his Eagle rank at 13 but I'm sure that there are some out there. My question is - can a Scoutmaster in fact refuse to recommend a boy for Eagle just because they think that he's too young - even if he's earned all the requirements? It will be interesting to follow this conversation at our future Round-tables as I'm sure it will come up again.

My wife asked this very same question this morning, so it must be on the minds of a lot of people. It's the same concern a normal parent would have about they teenage son or daughter camping in the same tent with scouts of the opposite sex. Fact of the matter it is all about sex at this age and if a scout is sexually attracted to anther scout, that can be cause for concern. We live in a litigious world and I can see traps all over this.

 

I guess we start with how other countries deal with it.

 

Barry

While I was attending a training event at the Philmont Training Center four years ago one afternoon I got to sit in on a discussion with the folks who were going through Venture Crew Leader training for the week. The couple teaching the class said that the number one problem that they had when camping with their Crew, was at night keeping the boys and girls out of each other's tents. There were probably another five or six crew leaders who spoke up and said the same thing. You put boys and girls that age together and the hormones are going to kick in. So, to say that sex isn't an issue - just take a look at the "challenges" that some crews have and you will realize it is.

Doesn't the goundhog get to go back in his den and sleep till then? Sounds like a plan.

 

Letting the 1400 members vote at the national meeting has to be be better than 15 on the executive board.

 

Does anyone know who the voting members are or how they are selected? I'm assuming council reps.

The National Council is comprised of the following members:

 

All members of its Executive Board

Members of the Regional Executive Committee

Local Council Representatives (president and council commissioner plus an additional member for every 5,000 youth members)

Members at large elected by the National Council for 1 year terms

Honorary (non-voting) members as elected by the National Council for 1 year terms.

I saw this coming. The executive board is probably just as divided on this issue as everyone else. But the fact the it was even considered is progress. I don't know why they think that there will be any difference in consensus in the general meeting in May.

 

- The BSA acceptance of gay leaders in inevitable as more society is becoming more and more accepting of equal rights of gay Americans. There is not reversing this trend.

 

- ]We interact with gay people is all aspects of our society including our houses of worship, schools, grocery markets, the military, YMCA, after-school sports programs, Boys & Girls Clubs, etc. I'm not sure whey certain people are afraid of allowing gay leaders and scouts in the BSA.

 

- 70% of the COs are religious in nature but only because schools and parent/teacher organizations no longer sponsor troops and packs because of the gay ban. If the ban is lifted hopefully we can get Scouting back into the schools. That would be a great source for new scouts.

Schools will not sponsor units unless you also allow atheists in - it's not just the ban on homosexuals.

Brewmeister may be right (I guarantee in the first press conference after the ruling, some tool will utter the words: This is a good start, but we have more work to do.) based upon this news story. It's interesting to see how a group that was OK with the proposed changes is now saying that they aren't enough - that every CO must implement this proposed policy.

 

Furor Over Proposed Shift In Scouts No-Gays Policy

 

By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer

Thursday, January 31, 2013

 

NEW YORK (AP) The Boy Scouts of America faces intensifying criticism from the

left and right over a proposal to move away from a mandatory no-gays membership

policy and allow troop sponsors to decide the matter for themselves.

 

The Human Rights Campaign, a major gay-rights group that initially welcomed the

BSA's possible shift, said Thursday that it was inadequate and demanded that the

Scouts adopt a nationwide policy to accept gays as scouts and adult leaders.

 

The HRC said corporations that continued to donate funds to the Scouts if any

troops were allowed to discriminate would lose points in an annual evaluation of

how major employers deal with gay-related workplace issues.

 

Meanwhile, conservative groups which support the long-standing no-gays policy

asked their followers to flood BSA headquarters with phone calls opposing any

change, Tony Perkins, president of the conservative Family Research Council,

urged callers to persist even if they couldn't get through at first.

 

"The BSA national leadership were not prepared for the thousands of Americans

who were shocked to hear that an organization that could always be counted on

for standing for what's right was about to cave in to homosexual activists and

corporations," Perkins said in an emailed appeal.

 

"It is so important that you keep the pressure on, to show them how devastating

this moral collapse will be for the Scouts and the country," he said.

 

Similar appeals were made by other conservative groups across the country.

 

The Boy Scouts, who emphatically reaffirmed the no-gays policy just seven months

ago, announced on Monday that they were considering a major change. Instead of

mandatory exclusion of gays, the different religious and civic groups that

sponsor Scout units would be able to decide for themselves how to address the

issue either maintaining the exclusion or opening up their membership.

 

The proposal is expected to be discussed, and possibly voted on, at a meeting of

the Scouts' national executive board next week in Texas.

 

Deron Smith, the Scouts' national spokesman, declined comment on the Human

Rights Campaign's announcement and also denied reports that the Scouts were

taking a poll to gauge public sentiment on the controversy.

 

"When we receive calls we allow people to provide feedback, but if the board

decides to address this topic, it will be about what is in the best interest of

Scouting," Smith said. "Regardless of what people think about this issue,

America needs Scouting."

 

Many Scout units are sponsored by relatively conservative religious

denominations notably the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of

Latter-day Saints, and Southern Baptist churches. Catholic and Mormon leaders

have withheld official comment on the proposal, but Southern Baptist officials

have criticized it.

 

The Rev. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary,

wrote in a blog post that the new policy "is almost sure to please no one and to

lead to disaster for the Scouts."

 

"Those pressing for a reversal of the national policy are not likely to be

satisfied with a local option," he wrote. "They had demanded a national policy

mandating the full inclusion of homosexuals throughout Scouting at every level.

 

"On the other side, those who wanted the current policy to remain in place will

now have to reconsider any relationship with the Boy Scouts," Mohler added. "The

scale of potential membership loss to the Boy Scouts of America is staggering."

 

Fred Sainz, a vice president of the Human Rights Campaign, said Scout board

members now needed to decide "what kind of America they want to be a part of"

one that frowns on all discrimination or tolerates a degree of it.

 

"The board has to make a decision one way or another," he said. "The policy

proposal they're considering makes the problem worse, not better."

 

The Human Rights Campaign's president, Chad Griffin, likened the proposed policy

change "to a national restaurant chain saying that it will not discriminate at

its corporate headquarters, but allow local restaurants to discriminate at

will."

 

To back up its stance, Griffin's organization said it would change the criteria

for its annual Corporate Equality Index. To receive a perfect score, companies

would have to prohibit philanthropic giving to civic organizations that have a

written policy of anti-gay discrimination, or permit its chapters, affiliates,

or troops to do so.

 

Amid pressure from petition campaigns, two corporations UPS Inc. and Merck &

Co. announced last year they were halting donations to the Scouts until the

no-gays policy was changed. For 2011, UPS donated more than $85,000 and Merck

gave $30,000 to the BSA and $10,000 to a regional Scout council.

 

I have found the link that you requested: http://www.gcumm.org/news/2013/01-29/statement-regarding-boy-scouts-of-americas-proposed-changes

I only have the actual email that was sent out to the Scouting Ministry Specialist. I will try to find out if they have posted it somewhere and report back.

The General Commission of the United Methodist Men (which oversees all Scouting for the UMC) has just released the following statement regarding BSA's policy change. It will be left up to each local church to determine whether or not they will allow gays and lesbians into Scouting - either as a youth or a leader.

 

Statement from GCUMM

 

Gilbert Hanke, top staff executive of the General Commission on United Methodist Men, says that both he and Larry Coppock, national director of scouting ministries, were consulted by the leadership at the highest levels of BSA prior to the proposal to change membership requirements.

 

Basically this proposed change removes a national membership requirement dealing with sexual orientation and allows those decisions to be made at a local level consistent with charter organizations perspectives, said Hanke.

 

The United Methodist Book of Discipline clearly supports the rights and liberties for all persons, regardless of sexual orientation.

 

In 2012, 6,700 United Methodist congregations enriched the lives of 363,876 young people through 10,868 Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops and Venturing crews.

 

We consider our scouting program as a ministry to the community and a way to provide the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relations with God, with others, and with self (2012 Book of Discipline 161F), said Hanke.

 

These proposed changes will allow local churches to reflect those tenets in their membership requirements. It does not force changes, but allows local churches control over these requirements.

 

These proposed changes are actually more consistent with the current Book of Discipline, Hanke concluded.

The General Commission of the United Methodist Men (which oversees all Scouting for the UMC) has just released the following statement regarding BSA's policy change. It will be left up to each local church to determine whether or not they will allow gays and lesbians into Scouting - either as a youth or a leader.

 

Statement from GCUMM

 

Gilbert Hanke, top staff executive of the General Commission on United Methodist Men, says that both he and Larry Coppock, national director of scouting ministries, were consulted by the leadership at the highest levels of BSA prior to the proposal to change membership requirements.

 

Basically this proposed change removes a national membership requirement dealing with sexual orientation and allows those decisions to be made at a local level consistent with charter organizations perspectives, said Hanke.

 

The United Methodist Book of Discipline clearly supports the rights and liberties for all persons, regardless of sexual orientation.

 

In 2012, 6,700 United Methodist congregations enriched the lives of 363,876 young people through 10,868 Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops and Venturing crews.

 

We consider our scouting program as a ministry to the community and a way to provide the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relations with God, with others, and with self (2012 Book of Discipline 161F), said Hanke.

 

These proposed changes will allow local churches to reflect those tenets in their membership requirements. It does not force changes, but allows local churches control over these requirements.

 

These proposed changes are actually more consistent with the current Book of Discipline, Hanke concluded.

 

Our District will soon be holding its Annual Business Meeting. All registered District Members at Large and Chartered Organization Representatives are eligible to vote on District nominees. I am a Chartered Org Rep but will not be able to attend this meeting due to a work conflict. My question is will I be able to provide my proxy to a registered Scouter from one or our organization's units so that they can vote?

perdidochas - I agree with you about the maturity level of the boys. I guess that they could earn the A of L award in the 4th grade and still stay for another year as a Webelos Scout while they're in the 5th grade.

 

Based upon everyone's feedback what my Committee Chair and I are looking at doing for next year is the following:

 

We plan on introducing a tried and proven "one year curriculum" for a boy to earn his Arrow of Light that was provided to us at the Council training workshop. We would expect (and hope) that most, if not all of those boys that actually earn their AoL would come back to the Webelos program for the next year and help provide leadership to that Den.

 

Another benefit of this "one year curriculum" would be if a boy joins the pack as a 5th grader, then we will have a proven program in place that we can present to him and his parents. It will show them that if they will just follow the guidelines then that boy can still earn his Arrow of Light award, even if his missed his entire 4th grade year as a Webelos.

 

Any feedback?

 

perdidochas; Prior to ever starting his fourth grade school year a boy would have already been a Webelos since the day after his last school day as a third grader. Most boys turn 10 years old while they are in the fourth grade - some toward the beginning and some later. So, if a boy turns 10 in October of his fourth grade school year, then six months later he would be eligible for his Arrow of Light award. That would be in the month of April and he would still be in the fourth grade. Also, if I read it right, the requirement that you quoted is not a "this AND that" requirement - it's a "this OR that" requirement. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong.

 

Again, I'm just asking for feedback on this matter because it was something new to us, and I thank everyone for their input. I don't think that this is just a one person renegade program that some pack is running in our council as there were quite a few people from different councils in attendance who said that they had implemented this.(This message has been edited by Lodge 489)

So, I would assume the site the quote he showed you that states

 

"A Webelos Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light Award has now completed all the requirements for the Scout badge and may join a Boy Scout troop."

 

May simply be outdated information.

_________________________

 

No, it's from the current official BSA website. It's titled "Improved Webelos Transition" and this is the program that they covered with us. Like one of the above posts states, they told us that all the LDS Packs have only a one year Webelos program and that is what they're now recommending that we all implement if possible because of their success with it.

 

Here's the link to the info and it's the fourth paragraph:

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/ImprovedWebelosTransition.aspx

At a council training event we attended a seminar on Webelos Transition. One of the topics that came up is that once the boy earns his Arrow of Light Award he is eligible at that time to enter Boy Scouts. We told the instructor that our understanding was that the boy had to be at least 11 years old and in the 5th grade.

 

He said that was not the case - that as long as the boy earned his AOL award he can cross over immediately. He said that his Pack only has a one year Webelos program for fourth graders and they have been crossing over boys who are still in the fourth grade and were just 10 years old.

 

He referred us to the BSA website where it clearly stated, "A Webelos Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light Award has now completed all the requirements for the Scout badge and may join a Boy Scout troop."

 

He said that his unit has been doing this for many years and obviously it has to be OK or that BSA would not allow them to do it.

 

I'm assuming that this must be true but I had never heard of it before as most every Pack we come into contact with has a Webelos 1 and a Webelos 2 Den. He said that quite a few units are moving to having only one Webelos Den and transitioning the boys over to BSA quicker as research shows that the sooner that they get into Boy Scouts, the better the odds are they will earn their Eagle.

 

Any thoughts or feedback would be much appreciated.

We have two Webelos Scouts that will be crossing over to Boy Scouts at our upcoming Blue & Gold Banquet. Neither boy will have earned their Arrow of Light award by the B & G. I know that the other Cub Scouts that did not earn their appropriate rank have until the end of the school year to do so if they didn't get it done by Blue and Gold.

 

Please clarify whether the Webelos can still work on their Arrow of Light Awards until the end of the school year. My understanding is that the minute they cross over then they are "officially" Boy Scouts and thus would no longer be able to work on Cub Scout/Webelos awards.

 

Any clarification on this would be much appreciated.

Nope, no problems with the other local troop at all - we have a great relationship with them. We are located in a rapidly growing town that has gone from just a couple of elementary schools a few years ago to where we now have two high schools, two Jr. high schools and 10 elementary schools. Even with this economic slowdown our town is still growing in new homes and people - not as fast as it was (thank goodness) but still moving forward.

 

Our pack started because the other pack in town was busting at the seams and could not take any more boys. The same with this Scout Troop we're starting - the other Troop says that they can't handle anymore boys so PLEASE start another troop. Plus, our CO (Methodist Church) really wants to have a Scout Troop, so that helps too.

 

And you're right about the DE - if he had his way there would be a pack at every elementary school and two or three more scout troops. I understand that most councils and DEs are just like that - it's all about the number of units.

 

Also, we are really considering the suggestion about just having one committee that serves both the Pack and the Troop. Same CO, same meeting facility, same group of parents that would be involved on both committees anyway - seems to make a lot of sense. The good news is that we are not being rushed into forming this troop. We have plenty of time to think things through and then do it right.

 

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Thanks for all the great feedback. Another question that has come up is regarding what uniform the leaders wear who are filling dual roles. Say an Asst. Cubmaster who is also an Asst. Scoutmaster - can he still wear his uniform with the Asst. Cubmaster patch on it and just change out the shoulder tabs when he's doing Boy Scout activities?

 

I guess the real question is in regards to our Webelos Den Leader who will also be an Asst. Scoutmaster. Since the Webelos boys will be camping with the Scout Troop he will in fact be performing two roles at the same time.

I am the Cubmaster of an existing Pack and we want to start a new Troop. We have enough boys to get it chartered but I have a few questions about staffing the adult leadership. We have one parent who has volunteered to step us as Scoutmaster and another parent who leave vacate his Cub Scout leadership position to be the Committee Chair of the troop.

 

My question is this: can adults who still hold leadership positions in the Cub Scout Pack also hold leadership positions in the Boy Scout Troop? For example, can my Assistant Cubmaster who is a former Boy Scout also hold a position as an Asst. Scoutmaster? Can members of our Pack Committee also serve on the Troop Committee? Neither the new Scoutmaster or Committee chair have any experience with Boy Scouts - either as a youth or as an adult. We want to try to get several of our Pack Leaders who were active in Boy Scouts as a youth (Eagle Scouts, SPLs, Jr. Asst. SMs, etc.) to be able to help provide some guidance to the new troop, especially in the areas of a "youth run organization" and utilizing the Patrol Method of scouting. Several of the Cub Scout adult leaders who would be helping them out are Wood Badge Trained too.

 

Everyone would like to see that happen but we're just not sure how it would be handles since these leaders are currently registered with BSA in one position and would actually be filling dual roles between the troop and pack. I have heard that BSA requires a minimum of four adults to start up a unit but other than the SM and the Committee Chair, what are any other "required" leadership positions in a troop?

 

Thanks for your suggestions.

A previous poster stated: "This year, not being involved with a Troop (I am DAC), the District nominated me and I received my letter."

_______________________

 

I thought only Adult Leaders who were active with a Boy Scout Troop could be nominated for OA membership - at least that's what we've been told in our District. We have several great Scouters who have spent quite a few years focusing their attention on Cub Scout Packs and whenever someone has tried to nominate them for OA they have been told that Cub Scout Leaders are not eligible. There are several Cub Scout Leaders who are OA members because they earned it as a youth but these worthy Scouters are told they never can be.

 

My question is that since you are no longer involved with a troop how were you nominated for OA. Does each Council, District, or Lodge have different rules regarding this?

 

Thanks!

"To go on any trail at Philmont you will need to do the full Trek version of their physical."

 

While we were at PTC last year we were able to hike quite a few trails on the Philmont Trek side. There were no restrictions and no special physical was needed - just the standard PTC physical.

 

Now when I came to Philmont in the 70s as a Scout, and spent 12 days hiking all around the place (it was officially called Philmont Scout Ranch and Explorer Base back then) we all had to complete a more detailed physical for our trek and I'm sure that they require something similar to that now. But PTC doesn't require that in-depth of a physical for attending their regular classes.

 

Abreu, Uraca, TT Ridge were just some of the ones we went on. I was with my wife and 7-year old Wolf Scout for the week and they had a great time hiking all around on the Scout side of Philmont while I was in classes. You can actually get patches at PTC (in the handicraft building) for most all of the trails that they have designated hikes for, or you can go over to Tooth of Time Traders and get some others. On several of our hikes we were actually at times walking with Scouts that had just hit the trail from Base Camp.

 

Just go to the main office at PTC and ask them for the hiking sheets for all the trails. They will provide you with a one page description for each of the various hiking trails, including maps, etc. You can also ask some of the staffers (or the PTC Chaplain) for other hikes they might recommend on the Scout side of Philmont.

 

We are going back to PTC twice this coming summer (June & August) and are looking to take even more hikes on our Wednesday days off. We found out that you can actually drive to some of the main trek destinations on the Philmont side and then hike around from there so we're going to do that this year.

They told us it was a Council in New York State that was running it. I don't know which one but I will check and see if I can find out which one.

Is this a new name for the Webelos to Scout Transition Coordinator?

 

Don't know but the way the folks from National explained it to us was that this was a brand new position that they had just created this past July. Perhaps it's something that they are reintroducing with a new emphasis.

How is Tiger Cubs voluntary?

 

My exact same response when I heard it a few weeks ago. I found out that if the Chartered Org does not want to have a Tiger Cub Den then that is entirely up to them. They told us that well over 30% of the U.S. packs do not have a Tiger Cub Den.

 

While at PTC we attended a presentation on "Scouting and the LDS Church" and found out that it's their church's policy that an LDS pack cannot have a Tiger Cub Den. We were also told that LDS churches are the largest Charter Orgs in the US and as such I'm pretty sure that they largely contribute to the high amount of packs that have no Tiger Cub dens.

 

This has nothing to do with Cub Scouting but it was interesting to learn all about the LDS Scouting structure, especially that the oldest boys that they allow in a Boy Scout Troop is 13 years old. The LDS Scoutmasters said it is extremely tough trying to find a "mature" 13 year old to be the SPL for a Troop. Since Boy Scout Troops are supposed to be "scout led" versus "parent led" like Cub Scouts are it sure presents its challenges