ljnrsu

If a person cannot choose as a scout leader to be trustworthy, loyal helpful friendly, kind, obedient cheerful, clean, and reverent in their post, then they should not expect courtesy in exchange for their behavior.

I respectfuly disagree with your statement. IMHO a scout or scouter is to follow all points of the scout law at all times. The Scout Oath says "and to obey the Scout Law". Not some of the Law some of the time or only the ones I feel like when I feel like depending on circumstances.

You can chose to "talk to" instead of "talk at" there is a big difference between the two. Two wrongs never make it right.

As for specific points of the scout law that may have been "violated". I will leave it for you and others to decide.

Friendly- "A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs that are different from his own."

Courteous- "A Scout is polite to everyone reguardless of age and position. He knows that good manners make it easier for people to get along together."

Kind- A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not harm or kill anything without reason"

(pg 7 Boy Scout Handbook tenth edition)

You and I will never agree on everything but from the passion you have for Scouting we both agree on one thing. We both want to deliver the best possible program and experience for the Scouts in our units and for Scouting in general.

Our Troop meetings are on Friday. Did it for two reasons. No boy sports are held on a Friday except for one HS football game. And that the boys have the weekend to do homework. The parents like Friday because homework is not an issue. The only drawback is we lose a meeting when we go camping.

Bob your Scouting history is also in error. Urban scouting came into effect with the Eighth edition of the Boy Scout Handbook.The first printing of this Handbook was June 1972,I have a copy in my scouting library. That is when skill awards were first introduced,along with MB's being required for Tenderfoot,2nd and 1st Class advancement. Another major change was the the number of MB's needed to earn Eagle was increased from 21 to 24. It wasn't until 1979, when Bill Hillcourt wrote the Ninth edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, that Urban scouting was dropped.

GopherJudy,

No, I do not work at the camp. I went there as a Scout 1966-1970, SM of my old Troop 1977-1980 and with my current Troop as ASM since 2000. Though I was a lifeguard there one summer while I was in college.

The menu for the week has been posted on the camps web site. PB&J is available at all meals. The food is actually very good.

If you have any other questions please send me a PM, I will be happy to answer them. In the mean time I will send you some other information that you may find helpful.

GopherJudy,

Can't tell you much about other summer camps but I do know NoBe. My Troop is going there July 31 for its 6th year, my 15th year.

If your son has not reached First Class then he will enjoy first class adventure. He should go to the class for his next rank ie Tenderfoot goes to the Second Class trail. They will do all of the requirements for that rank during the week. There will be a 5-6 mile hike on Thursday after lunch. First Class adventure is also set up for the scouts to earn swimming MB as it covers the 1st Class swimming requirements(see the MB schedule) or 2 other MB's.

The shower house has private changing area and shower stalls. There is a tour of the camp on Sunday that all Scouts take with their camp guide. Most guides encourage the parents to tag along as it ends at the waterfront where the scouts take the swim test.

Bringing water is fine,each site and program area has running water from the camps well system. You worry about soda, I'm concerned with the milkshakes that the trading post sells. They have curbed the appetite of a few Scouts in our Troop. Snacks I would not recommend for the obvious reason. There are animals that visit in search of food both day and night.

On the camps web site is a link to send e-mail to your son. A few of our parents use this feature. Our SM likes getting the baseball scores one parent sends.

There are camp or Troop activities every nite. The Scouts should have a great time.

Juris I find your posts amazing. With each post your misstatements of BSA terminology and programs are more profound.

BSA,Inc does not exsist. Nationals charter states the name as Boy Scouts of America or BSA. There is no Inc,Ltd or Corp in its name.

Camping,knot tying,cooking all were requirements when I earned my AOL in the spring of 1964. This seem to have been part of the Cub Scout program prior to your involvement in Scouting.

"I improved the recruiting program by asking my high ranking scouts to serve as Den Leaders in the Packs, so they can influence the Cub scouts to join the best troop in the district".

I think you meant Den Chief instead of Den Leaders. Since a Den Leader must be an adult.

One purpose of a Den Chief is recruitment. How did you "improve" something that already exsists. All you did was to use part of the program that has been around since atleast 1945.

(my library only goes back as far as the Third Handbook for Scoutmasters, Eleventh edition copyright 1945)

As far as Webelows camping,cooking etc. IMHO that is a great thing. It serves to make the transition from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting easier. They already have had a taste of what is to come since 75% of scouting is outing.

My local shoe repair has fixed both a backpack and a tent for me with great results.(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

No, the boy can not use one badge for Star and the other for Life.

The answer to your question is found on the Eagle Scout Rank Application itself.

The application states: Cross out badges not earned. If a crossed-out badge was earned, it may be reentered in 13 through 21. Four of these required merit badges were earned for the Star Scout rank and three more were earned for the Life Scout rank.

I hope this answers your question.

hacimsaalk12,

There is an age requirement for JASM.

You must be atleast 16 years old.

It is listed in the SM handbook

I recertified in April. Entered memberID number and Council ID number.

I received card via e-mail in minutes.

Also received an e-mail from my SE stating that Council's records will be updated.

CNY,I agree advancement is over emphasized.

I also agree that the patrol method is the most misunderstood. Putting 6-8 Scouts together does not always make it a patrol. I see patrols as mini Troops. They have their own meetings and outings. All to often I have seen units where patrols do not have their own meetings. And where patrol outings were discouraged or not allowed.

Saw something very similar a couple of years ago.

It was for State Farm Insurance. It showed an agent as a Scoutmaster doing some scout stuff and as a youth sports coach. It ended with he's not just your agent he's also your neighbor.

cmarrero,

As our unit is also from NNJC.

All of the adult leaders who are going are listed on the tour permit. We also add the following: Scouts will be transported by their own parent/guardian or the above listed drivers. This has always been accepted by Council.

I hope this helps.

(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

I have a similar tent made by coleman,purchased mid 60's,the poles are external. The top pole has a 90 bend on one end and a 45 on the other.

It was called an external spider umbrella because the poles looked like spider legs.

Scouterfly, I wonder if the timing of the fundraising could be the problem in that scenario.

Raising funds after the project is over in order to remburse donors could be the problem. At least that is how I interpret your scenario.

According to a copy of the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook(2003)Pg2 "Fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials or supplies needed to carry out your project"

meamemg,

The ASM-New scout patrol is the one responsible for that program not a youth.

It doesn't matter how many troop guides you have,they still are responsible to the ASM-new scout patrol. You can have a Troop guide assigned to each New scout patrol.

Chapter 3 page 16 of the Scoutmaster Handbook has a sample Junior Leader Organizational chart for a large Troop. Ask your SM if you can look at his copy.

The current edition of the Senior Patrol Leaders Handbook is a great resource for SPL's and ASPL's.

meamemg

Troop Guides should not be the responsibility of a ASPL. They should be the responsibility of the ASM for the new scout patrol, along with any Den chiefs you may have.

The Scoutmaster handbook along with Scoutmaster Junior Leader Training kit has the information on Troop orginazation.

"we ate things that were mostly packed in plastic and aluminum. you know how hardit would be to pack all that stuff out?"

Just as hard it was to carry it in in the first place. Where there is a will, there always is a way.

Do you actually believe that what you bury stays buried? Some animal will eventually find it and just dig it up. They are resourceful critters.

www.lnt.org They do a much better job of explaining LNT guidelines than I can. Since I do not wish to become long winded.

link worked(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

"serve actively" in a POR the "grey" area of Scouting.

Is it the SM,SPL,ASPL or some combination of them?

To me it is some combination of the above.

A PL is responsible to the SPL who in turn is responsible to the SM. So if a PL in "not" doing his job then it is a problem for the SPL and SM in that order. If the SPL doesn't have a problem with a PL but the SM does,the SM has a bigger problem. Besides having a PL "not" doing his job he also has a SPL "not" doing his.

If you look at a "troop junior leader organization" chart you will find that in most cases for POR there is another POR above the one in question. Therefore in some cases you don't have one boy who "fails" but two.

It all comes back to training,guidance,coaching and specific feedback for everybody involved. This is something that has to be done from first day to the last day of their tenure in office.

I always remember what I was told at NCO School. If I want to look good. I have to make sure the people under me look good, as they are a direct reflection to(on) me.

Great question fgoodwin. The answers can easily be found in Backpacker's Guide to LNT.

The bigger question is how closely do you want to follow them?

LNT says to minimize use and impact of fires. They suggest that the fuel used in a fire be no thicker than your wrist. Using that guide line the fire will probably not get hot enough to reduce paper to fine ash.

"pack it in;pack it out" is just that.If you can carry it in you can carry it out.

I recently took 4 scouts on a 5 day 30 mile backpacking trip on the AT in NJ. 6 people(2 adults,4scouts) we did not fill 2 1 gallon bags of garbage. As scheining said if you plan properly there is little to take out. Those 4 scouts besides getting the trip they needed for backpacking MB they also finished earning the BSA LNT award.

BTW I am our unit's LNT coordinator/instructor.

Hunt you brought up some very interesting points.

I'll take a bite at #5, that worm looks mighty yummy.

I would like to see changes made in all of the ranks leading to Eagle.

For Scout I would like to see the following(a)Describe the flag of the United States of America and tell its history in brief. (b) Demonstrate respect for your flag by showing how to hoist,lower,display,fold and salute it. Tell when to fly it.

Tenderfoot: be active in your troop,patrol and activities for at least 1 month since becoming a Scout. While a Scout,do the following(list of requirements). Or Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 2 months as a Scout.

Second Class: be active in your troop,patrol and activities for at least 1 month since becoming a Tenderfoot Scout. While a Tenderfoot, do the following(list of requirements). Or Be active in your troop and patrol for least 3 months as a Tenderfoot Scout.

First Class: be active in your troop, patrol and activities for at least 2 months since becoming a Second Class Scout. While a Second Class Scout, do the following(list of requirements). Or Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 4 months as a Second Class Scout.

Star and Life: While a Star/Life Scout, plan,develop, and carry out Scoutmaster approved projects in each of the following areas- (a) Church or synagogue, school, or community service. (b) Conservation/Environmental.

Before everybody takes out a rope to hang me let me say this. These "changes" were part the Boy Scout requirements. They can be found in the Sixth, Seventh,Eighth Editions of the Boy Scout Handbook or the Boy Scout Requirements 1968 edition.

As to Eagle Required MB's. I like that Cooking,Nature and Safety, which I had to earn for my Eagle(1971), have been replaced with Citizenship in the World, Communications and Personal Management. I feel that that change is for the better. It gives a more rounded out Eagle. I also like that Lifesaving and Swimming have alternative badges. I do not feel that nonswimmers should be excluded from the opportunity to earn Eagle.

I think that National has recognized the problems with Merit Badge requirements being to easy,to hard,outdated etc. They now seem to have a formal plan to review MB requirements on an on going basis. We have seen this with changes in Merit Badge requirements in most cases complete rewrites over the last 3 or 4 years. I know they hit me hard this year since I am a counselor for Cit Community and Cit Nation.

I believe that each Scout Rank is a stepping stone to the next one. You take what you have learned from one and expand on that knowledge and experience on the next one. To me the journey to a destination is more important that the destination itself.

(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

Eagledad,as I said in my post. An Eagle Scout is an Eagle Scout no matter what age they earned it.

Some of the comments in the other post drove me batty. Adults holding boys back because they feel that age has something to do with "being" an Eagle is just wrong. Giving "back" before you age out.

If a boy has the drive and ambition to earn Eagle at 13 all the power to him. If on the other hand a boy is enjoying what his Unit is doing an earns Eagle at 17.99 that is ok also.

As for head strong teenagers, during my tenures as SM and ASM I have seen both sides of that coin. I have seen boys acquiesce to the pressure from parents. I also have seen almost as many boys quit because of it.

In 1977 after serving a tour of duty in Nam and getting a college degree I went back to my old Troop. I was ASM, then 6 months later the SM. During that 5 year tenure I was privileged to have 4 boys earn their Eagles.

When my oldest crossed over 10 years ago I got reinvolved as an ASM in his Unit, where I still am. In this tenure so far I also have been privileged to see 6 boys earn their Eagle, including both of my sons.

In between all of that I spent 8 years on our councils Eagle Board Of Review. I saw Eagle candidates from just under 14 to just under 18.

Age did not matter to me then and it does not matter now.

Why should leaders be concerned about an Eagle candidates age? National does not have an age requirement for Eagle. But that decision is well above my pay grade.

I whole heartily agree with you that the best program is the one that keeps the boys interested. While being fun and rewarding to the age of 18. As adult Leaders that is one of our goals.

Scouting is NOT about the parents,adult leaders or Unit committee. It is about the boys and only the boys. I consider my "job",is to help train, guide and assist them during their Scouting journey. It is their journey to take. It is all about what each individual boy wants. In the end it is the boy that has to do all the work. He has to earn the MB's, do the service projects, and all the other requirements in between.

Unc, Thanks for saying what need to be said.

You are absolutely correct. Only the Scout decides,since he is the one that must do the work involved. Noone can do it for him.

Your comment is so true.

"Have you ever tried to convince a headstrong 13 year old of anything? You may be able to "muscle 'em" but you're not going to convince them of a darn thing".

It reminds me of what a coworker once told me.You can always tell a teenager, but you can't tell it a darn thing.

An Eagle Scout is an Eagle Scout no matter what age they earned it.

BTW I earned my Eagle at 17.75, better late than never is how I look at it 33 years later.

My neighbors 4yr old came out with these yesterday.

What do you call a crate full of ducks? A box of quackers.

What happens to a duck when it flys upside down? It quacks up.

BW,PS,FB great reply.

Our Troop had the attitude that something is better than nothing. Come late/leave early whatever is necessary. We understand that Scouts is not the only activity the boys do.

Everybody needs to be flexible.