ljnrsu

The $10K is not your budget but the total of gross monies received and deposited in your units bank account. You will need to provide 5 years of financial data to complete Form 1023.

Form 1023 instructions: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1023.pdf

Form 1023: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1023.pdf

Beavah your misunderstanding of Social Security and Medicare funding does not shock me as many do not understand how the funds are accounted for and the effect it has on the Federal budget.

Prior to 1976 Social Security funds and expenses were outside of the Federal budget. Since that time except for 1976-1982 Social Security funds have reduced the ACTUAL Federal deficit. Social Security and Medicare each have their own separate Trust funds. By Federal Law any excess funds must be reinvested using special issue bonds issued by the US Treasury. Interest is paid on the outstanding Trust fund balance at the current rate of 2.125%. When the Social Security Administration did have deficits from 1976 to1982 the only thing that happened was the non-public debt held by the SSA was reduced and the public debt was increased by the same amount by the US Treasury. Also you can see in the Social Security Trustees report that the income tax collected on Social Security benefits is being reinvested in the Trust funds to help keep them solvent.

FYI: the dissertation for my MBA in taxation was on Social Security.

Social Security Trust fund data 1940-1976:

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/ProgData/oldfyOps.html

Social Security Trust fund data 1976-2009:

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/ProgData/fyOps.html

Medicare Trust fund data 1966-2009:

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/supplement/2010/8a.html

US Budget data 1968-2007:

http://www.cbo.gov/budget/data/historical.pdf

Social Security Trustees Report issued Aug 5, 2010:

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html

There is no problem with someone that is selling items such as Beavah describes, there is a problem when someone creates a mini-business selling hundreds of 2010 BSA Anniversary items. I think sherminator is describing someone on Ebay that since April 1 has sold 37 2010 Eagle presentation kits, 133 complete Scout-Eagle rank sets, 91 2010 Eagle rank patches and 47 2010 Eagle Anniversary pins along with many many other 2010 Anniversary items (only counted what this seller has received feedback for). I do not know how other Councils handle Eagle presentation kits but they are very controlled in my Councils Scout shop. If these are "black market" items then it presents other concerns about National protecting its brand.

Sounds as if you have a pair of shorts from the early 70's. I have pants and shorts from the late 70's where the buttons are identical saucer shape and have Boy Scouts of America on the "rim" along with the the metal closure that says talon just like yours do.

edited part: my shorts have no rear pocket flap but the pants do(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

Ev, since you think the time frame is excessive I suggest you call National and speak with Team Leader for Advancement or his assistant. I am sure she will be able to answer your questions and explain the current National appeal process.

Mdsummer called me 10:28 AM on Feb 23, my phone saves who called and when, she called National and was told that the Advancement Committee had sent some questions for her Council Advancement Committee to answer. She called her Council and was told they had received Nationals questions and Council Advancement Committee should have their response ready to send back to National by the end of the week. Is this is recent enough for you Ev?

Mdsummer confirmed that she will post Nationals decision whether approved or denied.

Nldscout National does answer the phone and talk to ordinary people or in my case a Scouter when I called them mid Nov.

Ev the letters of denial from Troop, District and Council state that Justin did not meet Scout Spirit Requirement. Troop and District letters mention not meeting Troop requirement of attendance at Troop meetings and outings. What is interesting is that Justin earned Life June 2006 and Eagle POR of ASPL which was signed off Jan 2007 but they used his then current POR of Instructor in their letters.

This has not been going on for over a year. Justin finished the last of Eagle Required MBs March, 2009.

Troop letter of denial is dated April 18, 2009

District letter of denial is dated May 28, 2009

Council letter of denial is dated June 24, 2009

Justins letter of appeal to National was dropped off at Council beginning of Sept. according to an Email mdsummer sent me. I know from a phone conversation she had with me in Dec that National did receive his appeal. We also spoke a couple of weeks ago after she contacted National as to status of appeal, she stated that it still was in process.

Eagle732 thank you for your post, like you I also have had recent contact with mdsummer but refrained from posting. There are posters that dont believe what I post is the truth or factual so I havent bothered posting additional info. Twocubdad,ev, among others has without saying it outright called me a liar and a perpetrator of a hoax. Based on what? Preconceived ideas of how long appeals should take. Prior experience that doesnt reflect Nationals current appeals procedures.

Ev what facts do you feel are still missing?

In the 60's a Scout needed to be Second Class to earn Merit Badges with some restrictions.

1963 Boy Scout requirement book pg 7 has the following:

"Second Class Scouts may earn merit badges except in the case of the following badges that have restrictions: Astronomy, Camping,

Canoeing, Cooking, First Aid, Lifesaving, Pioneering, Rowing, Signaling, Surveying, and Swimming. These restrictions are shown under the grouping title for the badges concerened."

The Boy Scout Requirements books 1965,1966,1967 on page 9, 1968 on page 12 and 1969, 1970 on pg 13 have the following:

"If you are Second Class or above you can earn any merit badge.

However, the following merit badges require that you do certain specific things before qualifying for them:" It then lists Astronomy, Camping, Canoeing, Cooking, First Aid, Lifesaving, Pioneering, Rowing, Signaling, Small Boat Sailing, Surveying and Swimming with what First Class Test or merit badges must be completed or earned.

It wasn't until June 1972 that Scouts below Second Class could earn merit badges.

I have to agree with Kahuna BSA still has not recovered from that era. BSA youth membership in 1972 was 6,524,540 by 1979 youth membership had dropped to 4,284,469

I think it is a fantastic opportunity for the BSA. Best part is it comes at no cost to BSA.

"What is the cost to the Boy Scouts of America?"

"This program comes to the BSA at no cost. Funding is provided through the philanthropic efforts of Dale and Gail Coyne. Additionally, funding will be provided by one or more presenting sponsors who wish to be a part of this unique marketing opportunity." From Question #7 FAQ's

http://www.scouting.org/motorsports/faq.aspx

Think of the TV exposure BSA will receive 17 races on ABC and Versus. The IRL car also fits nicely with Revell being BSA's PWD official supplier. Merchandising options abound.

Teleconference with Bob Mazzuca and Dale Coyne Racing

http://www.dalecoyneracing.com/bsaindy.html

Ev,

You are correct that mdsummer is in MD and I am in Northern NJ. I did internet search for her Troops website, I have her Unit # and location from Troop denial letter and 2 letters from SM written on Troop stationery that she faxed me. It is not that difficult to verify that you have correct unit website when you have all that information. I did make an error in my posting, in verifying her units website this morning it is not Scout Spirit as I posted but in their definition of Active Scout, on page headed Scout conduct. I admit I did get a little confused since both Troop and District used attendance as part of their basis for not meeting Scout Spirit in their letters of denial.

Beavah,

It was both your public and private criticizing and chastising of my actions in June that chased me away and caused me to take a 6 month sabbatical from posting and for the most part reading threads at scouter. I am not going to allow you a second time without responding.

Mdsummer came to the forums asking for help and guidance in this unfortunate situation. For the most part she received helpful advice from the posts but there were a few that treated her with scorn and distrust. She was an uninformed parent in BSA rules, policies and procedures yet there were a few who responded as if she had years of experience and had taken BSA training. Yes, I did offer her my help and NO, I do not feel guilty about doing so.

I have no doubt that there are many good Scouters in her Council and possibly a couple of bad ones just like there are here on the forums. Who was she supposed to turn to for help, her Troop Committee that enforces a Troop rule that in order to show Scout Spirit a Scout must have X % of attendance at Troop meetings and Y % of attendance at Troop outings? Her DAC, who would given the appeal? Her DC, who has more than a passing relationship with her SM and who eventually chaired the District appeal? Tell me who she was supposed to turn to?

"it's still inappropriate for scouters from several states away to insert themselves into the process, and they still should feel chagrined for doin' so".

Beavah I believe you have a legal background. Tell me how inserting myself into the process is any different from an Attorney filing a friend of a Court brief on an issue they feel strongly about and want to help correct an injustice without personally knowing the litigant? What about a junior Attorney giving a Senior Partner a brief to read before filing to make sure all points are covered and the is are dotted and the ts are crossed when the Senior know them only as a file#? Or when an Attorney rehearses a closing statement in front some of their staff for input and critique? I do not see any differences between the actions.

As a Scouter the Scout Oath, Law and also in my case Eagle Scout Oath are just not words to recite but words that have real meaning. They are words that I try my best to live by 24/7, ...To help other people at all times, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, a living example of the Scout Oath and Law. To this I pledge my sacred honor. As a Scouter I truly believe that we must live by Scout Oath and Law in the same way and manner we expect our Scouts to live by them. To do anything less we are being hypocrites, other wise it becomes do as I say not as I do.

Am I embarrassed or regret what I did, no not in the least bit. Will I offer my help again in that way sure will? To do anything less will not be living up to the Scout Oath and Law in my eyes. What does embarrass me are others who add hoops for Scouts to jump through or condone them.

What I do find irresponsible is your public reprimand of my action. You should be chagrined for doing so. I learned in NCO school and in Business Management Courses that you praise in public and reprimand in private. Guess you either missed that lecture or choose to ignore it.

I probably bent a couple of Scout Laws with this post and will have to try harder to follow them tomorrow.

Ev and vol_scouter, I can corroborate mdsummer45s story. In a PM I offered my help in assisting her, which she accepted and between May 19 and Sept 2 we each exchanged in excess of 50 emails and more than a few phone conversations. She also faxed me copies of Troop, District and Council letters of denial. I also know by name another member of the forums that also assisted her in critiquing and editing Justins appeal to National.

Mdsummer called me on Dec 2 after getting off the phone with National. At which time she informed me that the appeal was still sitting at National waiting to be given to the Appeal Committee and that the earliest would be mid Jan before she received a response from National. Am not that surprised that appeals take this long considering the turnaround for our Troops Eagle applications. Our last EBOR was Nov 4 Council called Dec 15 that Eagle packet could be picked up.

Like one or two others from this forum I also have offered her advice, understanding and encouragement in this matter via PMs and e-mails

To answer Nike and Ed there are no big gaping holes. Mdsummer has given the whole story and nothing big or major has been omitted from her posts concerning this situation. I can state that unequivocally. Shortly after receiving District Committee letter she faxed me the following: 2pg letter dated 11/3/08 from SM to her son, 5pg letter dated 4/16/08 from SM to Troop Committee, 2pg letter dated 4/18/08 Troop Committee decision, and 5pg letter dated 5/28/08 District Committee decision, her sons 8pg presentation to Troop Committee. We also had 3 phone conversations Thus after she received Councils decision and her phone calls to Council and National. Yesterday she sent me Council Advancement Committee letter.

Thank you NeilLup for giving her Nationals phone # and Bill Evans name before I could.

Districts decision was not a shock as SM for the Troop is listed as Boy Scout Leader Training Coordinator and Brownsea Scoutmaster- Jr leader training on Districts web page on Councils web site. As some have already said good ole boy network. While it seems something is missing nothing is. It is just how somethings have become convoluted in subsequent letters.

(Edited at request of the poster) --Hops (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Welcome to the forums.

Reason you can't find insigna guide from that time period is they didn't exsist back then. Insigna Control Guide was first printed Jan 1978. Searched through almost 1,000 BSA titles on US Copyright site and that was oldest I found.

Trained patches were not used then. The SM/ASM patches were Tenderfoot emblem on green twill,rolled edge. Tenderfoot emblem on fully embroidered green twill, mylar thread designated fully trained.

Had choice back then either R/W council patch or R/W community,state strip.

This site may help: http://www.councilstrip.com/

Was SM 1977-1982 and have the 1978 Insignia Control Guide.

Beavah, my experience as a Council or District representative on EBORs tells me differently. During which times have sat on a few EBORs where a Unit approval signature was lacking on the Eagle application. Guess on this point we will have to agree to disagree.

But that is neither here or there in mdsummers case. The appeal was not over Unit approval signatures but the SMs refusal to grant a SMC. What started out as an appeal of SMC somehow has now morphed itself into a question of his Scout Spirit.

Hopefully as you stated Council will be more remote and objective.

Scout Spirit requirement for Eagle is unique from all the other Ranks. Tenderfoot through Life Requirement: Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. and is signed off by Unit Leadership.

Eagle Requirement 2: Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references. Those recommendations decide whether or not the Scout has fulfilled the requirement not Unit Leadership.

As for attendence getting signed off for POR took care of that. In order for that to be signed off there had to be enough attendence to successfully fulfill the Position he had.

Considering the requirements as written and Although they did tell my son and I that his LORs were wonderful/glowing I do not understand how the District Advancement Committee upheld the Troops decision. Unless there is a good ole boy network where whatever the Unit decides is good enough for them or DAC doesnt want to overrule a Unit and is passing the buck to Council.

You need to check with your Council since as click23 stated you need to file a Flying Permit Application. Your Council decides whether or not Sailplane is an approved activity.

As Eagle 92 said if DAC is following procedures, it will be your sons EBOR.

Sorry for any confusion my response created. My response is based or biased upon how my District Advancement Committee would handle this situation.

Again you are appealing the denial of a Scoutmaster Conference. Your son needs the SMC to fulfill Requirement #6. Their approval signatures are moot at this point. Your appeal has effectively removed the Troop Leadership from the process. By requesting an EBOR upon successful completion of the SMC you are in effect getting the necessary signatures. The District Advancement Committee can sign the application, though they may ask the Troop to reconsider signing.

John gave great advice in what should be included in the appeal. He left out one important piece. You are not appealing the decision of recommending an EBOR. You are appealing the SM and Troop Committee decision to deny a Scoutmaster Conference as that is the last requirement that needs to be signed off. You should also ask upon successful completion of the SMC that an EBOR be convened.

It is a very sad that the Leadership in your Troop is acting in this manor. To bring up incidents that happened years ago to deny Eagle at this time. As others said the time to bring up these issues was long ago.

edited sorry for double post(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

John gave great advice in what should be included in the appeal. He left out one important piece. You are not appealing the decision of recommending an EBOR. You are appealing the SM and Troop Committee decision to deny a Scoutmaster Conference as that is the last requirement that needs to be signed off. You should also ask upon successful completion of the SMC that an EBOR be convened.

It is a very sad that the Leadership in your Troop is acting in this manor. To bring up incidents that happened years ago to deny Eagle at this time. As others said the time to bring up these issues was long ago.

Forumla should be listed in the lashing section-rope length.

Formula is 3 feet of rope per 1 inch diam of spars used. example 1 spar 2" and other 3" equals 5 inches X 3 feet therefore 15' of rope needed for lashing.

Ditto Ed alert Council.

Yes T-2-1 reviews were done by Scouts from 1972-1989, they were called Progress Reviews. The PLC did the review with 1 TC nonvoting member.

What I stated what my dad did took place 40+ years ago. Back then you could just check the NFP box and it was accepted. The IRS back then considered Packs,Troop and Posts a subset of BSA's 501©(3) status, similar to PTO/PTA's,American Legion and Womens Clubs being a chapter/subset of a national organization. That is no longer the case with BSA units, they are now stand alone entities.

Using Beavah's $5k threashold it doesn't take much to exceed it. Using 10 cubs in Pack, dues/registration of $75 is $750.00, each sell $400 in popcorn is $4000.00 Total Gross Receipts then is $4750.00 if the Pack collects more than $251.00 for Pack a overnighter/trip they now have exceeded the $5,000.00. The IRS limits are low and easy to exceed.

On doing a search of non profits on the IRS.gov website there are many what appear to be self chartered units that have filed for tax exempt status - in fact a LOT.

The majority of what you saw are units that probably applied for EIN 20-40 years ago. Back then when a Pack,Troop or Post filled out SS-4 and checked the box as Tax Exempt the IRS would stamp TAX EXEMPT on the SS-4 and issue a Tax Exempt EIN. My dad filed SS-4's for the Pack my brother and Troop I belonged to when NJ instituted its Sales Tax in the 60's and thats how the SS-4's were returned to him. The reason he did that was to get NJ Sales Tax exempt status and the units CO's had not applied for NJ exempt status. In order to be NJ Sales Tax exempt you must have Fed Tax Exempt status.

As each State is different in how they treat Sales Tax exemption you need to check with your State about its policy and proceedures.

Applying for Fed Tax Exempt status is not easy nor does it come cheap. Some form of legal entity needs to be created and Form 1023 filled out. The $10k threshold for Form 1023 is very easy to reach. IRS considers Gross Revenue as any and all funds that were deposited in your bank accounts plus any property given at FMV.