AntelopeDud

Having a son with ADD, I understand the notion of a "Medication Holiday". It is even suggested from time to time from the pediatrician. But, parents have to think about what they are doing. Generally, ADD is an inability to properly focus. Of course it makes logical sense to take the meds during the week at school because it's helps them learn what they are being taught. When you are at a Scouting campout - or any event where your child will be working, the same need to remian focused exists, and the meds should be taken. At school, it you loose focus, you get a bad grade. At a campout, if you lose focus, someone could get hurt.

While I get aggrivated with the reports that the Scout was allowed to "Sleep In" and then left behind with just one leader, the truth is that most of the blame with he NC youth lies on the youth himself. ADD is NOT an excuse to misbehave or act irradically. It sounds like this kids wandered off at lunch time when the entire Troop was present, so it could happen at any time. The first Scout law is "Trustworthy" and this young man was not trustworthy because he did what he knew was wrong. A 12-13 year old boy should be old enough to self-medicate when needed. The issue of trustworthiness needs to be brought up with this Scout and he needs to understand that there could be repercussions if he is not. He is putting himself, his Troop and the BSA at risk when he takes matters into his own hands.

I also heard on an interview last night that the mother said she will never take her eyes off of him again. I just cringe when I hear stuff like that because she is not letting him grow and learn from what was obviously judgemental error by this young man.

I'll get off my soapbox, but it just kills me that people labels kids "ADD kids" and blame all of their problems on that. These children are no different than anyone else. They have the responsibility to take meds, they should do it for their own safety, just like a diabetic kid must take meds for his own safety. It's a meater of teaching all boys responsibility and make sure they are doing what is neccessary.

-AD

That's great motivation, and I'm sure they were a pretty tight unit during their journey.

"The schism can be seen right here in this thread 7 replies with 4 boy scout leaders blaming cub scout leaders for their losses.

Stop blaming cub scouts for ailments in the boy scout program. Boy scouts shouldn't even need a "prepared" scout. So how could we prepare them wrong? "

I think an unintentional nerve has been struck here.

Most Boys Scout leaders were at one point Webelos Den Leaders so I don't think that "Blame" is what we are doing. My comments come from they heart because this "Schism" caught me by surprise when 7 of 11 Webelos that I crossed over into one Boy Scout Troop or another have since dropped out. I now know why that happened. These boys were not prepared because I didn't take the time to learn my position as I should have, go to Wood Badge or really understand Boy Scouting. I wish I had it to do all over again. I think we are all simply offering advice because we want your Webelos to cross-over into Boy Scouts and stay there - and we have some good suggestions.

There is preparation for going into Boy Scouts. The design of the Webelos program, the training, the support (Den Chiefs, Denners, etc) can get them ready. Problem is, there may not be the best training in the world to tell Webelos Den Leaders how to best utilize these. I took a Webelos to Scout transition class and, although it gave me some insight as to how to visit and interact with Troop, didn't give me some information I needed in how to begin handing over some responsibility to my Webelos to gradually get them ready for the big change once they cross-over. I did it wrong. They should have been prepared and I could have done a better job if I did better homework..

I once heard someone tell me that the HARDEST job in the entire BSA organization is that of Webelos Den Leaders. How true it is. It's tough to find time to breath, let alone go research the best ways to prepare my kids for Boy Scouts. If there is any "blame" - I would suggest that it is due to educational literature that could be improved.

However, I stand by my claim that these 4th and 5th graders are sick and tired of cutting and pasting. That shouldn't be considered an insult to the Den Leader, that's just how these kids feel. They want to be challenged.

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God Bless!

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I think that the schism occurs during the Webelos years. Kids are alot more advanced, savy and smarter earlier than they were 20 years ago. By the time Cub Scouts become Webelos, they have dne all the gluing and pasting of paper that they want. Nowadays, Kids this age really need to get outside more and become far more hands on and challenged. I'm amazed at the number of Webelos who cross over and have not camped very much at all. In fact, you could count on one hand how many times they have camped.

I believe that we need to get the Webelos outside more, Webelos Leaders need to implement the Denner system properly and go to training to learn how to utilize a Den Chief. All of these things take more commitment on the part of the Webelos Den Leaders, who are already extremely busy, but perhaps Pack Committee could create a position for Webelos to Scout transition and help with this. But they all will begin acclimating a young Webelos Scout to how Boy Scouts operate. More and more I see that the parents are getting worn out and the Webelos themselves are getting worn out with the whole program. It's not challenging enough for them.

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Sometimes, I think we are losing our focus of the aims we are supposed to be teaching. One's character isn't a reflection of his fund raising abilities. I'm sure Bill Clinton (A star Scout) would raise $1 million, but I wouldn't view him as an appropriate voice for Boy Scouts.

Our council had U.S. Navy Commander Scott Waddle speak at our Character Counts breakfast. Who is he? He is a Submarine captain who made an error in his location as he resurfaced underneath a Japenese vessel killing nine people. His ethics he learned being an Eagle Scout made him immediately take responsibility for his actions. The story can be read here:

http://www.newsok.com/article/keyword/3019598/

A tragic stroy, but one of true values as he never once passed blame to anyone but himself. A good man with outstanding character.

The breakfast raised $458,000. Maybe character does count.

-AD

My district doesn't really do a very good job with this either IMHO. I mean, they put on Day Camps and Webelos Woods and a recruiting event or two - which is great. The problem is, they don't tell units how to use them.

Now, some of this should fall pretty square on the shoulders of the Boy Scout Troops. If you don't understand that these events are there for your recruiting benefit and choose not to staff them, then they deserve your low numbers. Problem with that attitude is that you aren't giving Webelos a good look into Scouting and may cause them not to cross-over at all. My troop always includes these events in our year-planning. We get most of our cross-overs from said events.

The questions here, however, is when to begin. Well, it only makes sense to begin in the Spring for the class crossing over into the following February. The reason is that many Packs aren't always all that active in the Summer so arrangement for future campouts could be made. If you wait until September or October, you might not find an argeeable date and it's often hard to get Cub parents to agree camping in cold weather. Get with them in the spring and that gives them an opportunity to visit or camp with other Troops later so that they can make an informed decision about where to cross-over.

In my district, most Packs have cross-over in February, but there are many who do it in March, April, May or even August. Unit commissioners need to be visiting with Packs and encouraging them to cross-over in February. That way, the kids get to enjoy Boy Scout Summer Camp and be a part of that first year program that is so important in Boy Scouts. Kids get disinterested if they have missed certain things and all of their peers begin to advance ahead of them. While this is inevitably going to happen, it would help and be much more controllable if all your Webelos crossed-over at the sme general time.

-AD

The Montrail Torre is another GREAT boot. Very comfortable and extremely durable shoe. The break in time for my pair was extremely minimal. I would buy them again over Vasque and others due to my satisfaction.

-AD(This message has been edited by AntelopeDud)

LisaBob,

My Troop does similar to what you do, but with variations. All of our new Scout go to a NSP upon crossover. They stay there 9-12 months, depending upon their progress. Last year we had over 20 new Scouts join our Troop, so we were able to create 2 NSPs.

Each NSP had two older Scouts as their Troop Guides. We had a stronger pair of leaders guide NSP A last year than NSP B. In that, I mean that one of the Troop Guides for NSP A was a little more mature, had better leadership and conflict management skills, and therefore was better at bringing the patrol together.

At the end of the year, NSP A had about 9 Scouts in it where NSP B had 3. This turned out to be an interesting experiment.

We also had specific ASMs for these NSPs. While they helped the Scout do some planning, they stayed at an arms length as they would have with any other patrol. The head ASM for New Scouts has realized that there needs to be added focus on continual leadership trining for Troop Guides. Mainly because they are going to have problems that other patrols don't. With this new group, they are going to do just that and be more hands-on with the Troop Guides and communicating with them more closely. IMO, the Troop guides will end up as the best leadership trained Scouts in the unit due to their experience.

We then take our new Scouts (after 9 mos to a year) and mix them into existing patrols. That works very well for us. I feel that the mix of young boys and older boys in all patrols helps the growing process as they older ones get an opportunity to be role maodels, whether or not they are Patrol Leaders, and the new boys get the benefit of being closer with an older Scout and learning from him.

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We as leaders, set up a program and set up boundaries that we intend for the kids stay between. We all know that youth of Boy Scout age are going to "push the envelope" and test those boundaries from time to time. It's part of their growing and maturing process and we shouldn't be blocking that. In the process, however, they will get carried away from time to time and that's where we, as mentors, come in. We help them understand what they did was wrong and why it was wrong, and hopefully inspire them to make a better choice next time.

Mistakes by the boys will be made. It is not a mark of a bad program that these things happen, it's a mark of a bad program if these things aren't dealt with when they do happen. These boys need to have this freedom to make these choices and possibly make mistakes. They will learn from them. I dare say that's what Scouting is about. We put boys into these situations where they have to make decisions on thier own - it's the boy-led patrol method. As adult mentors, we help the Scout determine what went right and what could have gone better.

Expecting your youth charges to never make a mistake is naive at best. Allowing them a safe environment in which they can either succeed or fail is how we teach them.

I'd like to say more, but I have to step down the hall. I had some of SR540's brownies last night and for some reason, I can't stay off the toilet.

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gogator

I am kind of a wimp when it comes to things like this, so here's how I would handle this. In a committee meeting, you can make a point that you have noticed that some of the youth have been caught with their shirts untucked. You want to start enforcing a rule of good appearance and that you were going to start really getting onto the Scout when you see them like this. As a good measure, since we are asking our Scouts to stay buttoned up and tucked in, let's all make an effort to do the same and make sure we look sharp.

Hopefully she will get the hint.

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Hey Bugs!

I know how you feel. I am the Committee Chairman for our Troop. When I first joined the Troop, I was asked (for what reason I'm still not clear) to take over for the outgoing CC.

One thing I have learned is that as Committee Chair, your committee looks to you for leadership. These are going to likely be pretty good adults who share a common goal and set of values. If something just doesn't seem right, then change it. Especially if it has to do with how the Committee meeting is flowing. That is your primary job. Run it however you are comfortable with running it. There are many posts to your thread with some great resources. Take advantage of them, then run your committee how you want to run it.

The good thing about all of the committee members being Tiger Parents is that you will probably work with them for several years and you willl likely get alot of things done while you are in the Pack.

Good Luck! Have Fun!

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kb6jra - Wow, you don't let kids sleep in tents until they get to First Class? Man, I thought our Scoutmaster was tough on the boys.

Nothing infuriates me more than to be ridiculed by other Scouters in your area for doing things right. Our Troop is seen by some as the 800-pound elephant of our district. We aren't just huge or anything, but we are always involved. We have a very diverse group of boys and appeal to many people because of our participation in things like Webelos Woods, Day Camp, other district activities. Troop in our district tend to not support these events, but turn around and complain when we "steal their kids". We end up recruiting the kids that they were after because we supported our district. Those Webelos have a great time with our Boy Scouts who staff district events and they naturally became interested in our Troop. We never called these people, they called us. Once they make contact, it's our job to see that they stay involved in Scouting, not just for the good of our unit, but for the good of the youth in our district.

I am so proud of our Scouts and I will never apologize for running a successful unit. Your DE is way out of line if he's telling you to cool it. He needs to be getting on his commissioners to help these struggling units succeed instead of labeling you "Too Good".

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I was NO wee lad in 1977. I was an imposing 8-year-old and well on my way to Dud and Woodbadge fame.

Pranksters I can handle. In fact, there is a particular SPL that I would love to 'Get Back' for clearing out my tent at summer camp and hiding it's contents in the woods. All in good fun, he is a great Scout. However, I have to be careful on how to acknowledge the fun and 'retaliate'. That's where those youth protection issues keep popping in my head and protect said SPL from waking up in the middle of the lake on a raft. Yes, sadly, Bill Murray and the 'Meatballs' gang is from my generation and that's how I learned to settle differences at Summer Camp. As a safety measure, SR540 keeps me chained to my cot at night.

It's the axe murderers or the child molesters that are the stars of my "What if.." thoughts. You just never know what might happen.

And Beavah, it's : P that animates the zerberk.

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Well, I have looked all through the G2SS and other publications and can't find anything that prohibits a boy sleeping in a tent alone. SR540BEAV loves pointing out the errors of AntelopeDud, there must be some kind of Merit badge for leaders on this ... the SM loves to do this too.

I guess that was a troop policy or maybe even a Pack policy from way back when. I still think the buddy system is the best guideline for tenting arrangements. I'd feel better because BSA guideline always have me thinking "what if". We have sleepwalkers, kids with allergies that require Epinephrine shots some we know of, some we do not. We ask for this information, but SR540 and I discovered just this past weekend of a Scout with an EpiPen - We need to know that kind of thing but it doesn't always happen. My biggest fear, however, is that someone could sneak into a tent of a solo Scout at night and harm him in some way.

I don't know, sometimes I think I take this Youth Protection thing too far, but then again, sometimes, I think they get too restrictive. Better safe than sorry is my motto.

So, here's to you, oh mighty Beaver of SR540 - you win again (but I still love ya').

-AD(This message has been edited by AntelopeDud)

I think it's being replaced by "A Scout is Ambiguous".

Beavah,

Going to the Pecos Wilderness. I don't think we have to pack it up there, but the topic came up in a WFA course that I took this past weekend and it just made me think.

Now, which one of these are tootsie rolls....?

-AD (DoD)

I'm a proud member of the Dud Patrol, the dedicated group of adult Scouters in my unit.

I agree with you OGE, it's always good to let everyone know what we are all about and what great things these young men do everyday. My comment wasn't really meant to counter the various and sundry political and news organizations that tend to paint a very misleading picture, my comment was really focused more on the issue of membership. I want to see more boys in Scouting. In my district, the public school system has kind of done an about face on support of the BSA and made it really hard to introduce boys to Scouting through schools. Where we once were able to put flyers in school backpacks and visit with kids and parents on orientation night, we are now looking at reaching people through the mail and inviting them to come see us. Membership has gone down as a result and the strain of postage for districts, units and CO is felt, and it really hasn't been a very effective approach.

I really don't think that alot of changes are in order. I would like to see the BSA improve it's image and make the program more attractive to youth. It always been kind of funny to me that the image that youth not in the program have of Boy Scouts is that nerdy little kids helping the old lady cross the road or those silly uniforms they wear. Truthfully, the thing that would attract a youth is that we do fun things that most kids don't get to do. Boys love to camp out, rock climb, canoe, etc. Sometimes I wonder if advertising that stuff might be worthwhile. The BSA has the Scoutzone website that really is a great glimpse into boy scouts;

http://www.thescoutzone.com/actionvideo.html

Or even something humerous. The Canadian Scouts have this hilarious ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCBHQNKKhGY

These are all different approaches to becoming appealing to youth. The values that we hold so dear appeal to the parents and we get a chance to instill those values once they join.

As an organization, I hope that the Boy Scouts resist as much change as possible. The only real fear I have with a major leadership change would be that the BSA compromises it's principles and caves in to the dreaded ACLU. Our steadfast values is one of the things that makes we most proud of the BSA. Please keep standing up against the ACLU. (I hope I haven't led this thread into a minefield).

-AD

WOW! What a great group of Scouters. Your knowledge of fecal matter is very impressive, as is your sense of humor. I have laughed, been informed of bacteria and had my stomach turn all on one topic. Well done Scouters!

-AD, the newly appointed Duke of Dung (I really liked that one OGE)

SR540BEAV, is like my Scouting big brother, always looking out for me, always making me take his crap, always getting me into trouble with the SM.

Seriously, he's a great Scouter and a wonderful mentor.

I just hate to take extra weight with me if at all possible, and do we really think that animals care that we poop in their front yards. We can all do more to protect our environment, but some things just seem to go a little overboard. Just looking for that other point of view. SR540BEAV has this pocket on the outside of his backpack and he will never know when I leave him a little extra brotherly love.

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(This message has been edited by AntelopeDud)

I understand, believe in and practice the principles of LNT when camping, but can someone explain to me why it is neccessary in some wilderness areas to pack up and carry your human waste with you? What is it about our poop that makes it so much worse than that of the other animals, that it needs to be carried out? Sounds like a bunch of "poop" to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

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firecrafter,

I know your thoughts are and have always been with the young son of this crazy man. We all want to help as many kids as we can, especially when it appears there is trouble. Ultimately, the right thing was done in that you've done what needed to be done for the good of the unit and boys in it. The best we can do is pray for this young man who seems to be lost in the cross-fire and hope that his dad receives the help he needs.

You did good - now on to the business of your Troop.

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I agree that increase in numbers DOES NOT equate to quality. My biggest problem is with requirement #5 "At least 70 percent of our youth members had an outdoor experience or one activity per month, or improve percentage over last year". I had to call my district commissioner on this one. Do they really think that we get 70% attendance to all of our campouts EVERY month? Surely I'm not reading this right. He said that yes, that what is expected, but instead of a campout, your unit can just go outside and have a flag ceremony to quality for that month.

Seriously, the idea of this new quality unit is pretty good, but the program could be outlines a little bit better. Oh well, four more years of units padding the rosters for a red, white and blue patch. Not good.

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