JerseyScout

Scoutmaster is no little thing, and is far more than what you think you are signing up for. For me, the best Scoutmasters have big hearts, a well-developed sense of fun, a nose for adventure, the ability to give and get respect, an almost unquestioning dedication to both the program and the Scouts, and a sense of how to hang back and let the boys lead without interference from him/herself or other adults. They need to play the role of teacher, of taskmaster, of gatekeeper, of mentor, of public relations man, of referee, of car driver, and of parent, and a million others on top of that.

To put it another way, my own Scoutmaster - not the parents - recieved at least one call from jail from a "you get one phone call" deal at 2 in the morning. He went out, bailed the young man out of jail, chewed him out horribly on the way to his parents, and then did everything he could to help out, even showing up at all the court dates as support. That case was extreme, but he did that and would have done that for any one of "his boys". From the first day of his Scout service up to this very moment, years after he has left Scouting, he will still do anything he can to help in any way he can. To me, that more than anything else is what makes the best Scoutmaster. A man with that sort of dedication can, and in this case did, take a group of boys anywhere.

Where these sort of people come from - Cub Scouts, former Scouts, among the parents, community members, or some combination of these - is inconsequential. I've seen great Scout leaders who "get it" who were Eagles and who never Scouts, who had multiple kids in their troop or none at all, who were recruited from the community with no Scouting experience or who came straight from years of Cub Scouts. I'm not convinced that any of those four groups is necessarily a "better place" than any other for finding good Scoutmasters.(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)

Guh, 2 1/2 hours to either of the closest stops. I live just outside the 6th biggest city in the country, why is there not a closer stop?

That's awesome.

I can't think of any offhand, but one I've been wanting to do for a while is set up a street hockey tournament and invite all the local troops to it. I found a first place trophy for our troop from a district-wide street hockey tournament from 1979, and thought that that was an awesome thing to do, even if its kinda bizarre for Scouts.

I constantly tell my Scouts that its not my troop, I aged out ten years ago.

However, they are my kids. Whenever anyone asks me if I have children, I tell them about fifty and counting.

I'm just starting out with this issue (been a Scoutmaster for only a month, although I've been de facto running the troop for 2 1/2 years). My approach is to make very clear what a Position of Responsibility is and what "active" is, to the point of saying "As a Quartermaster, your responsibilities are this, this, and this" and outlining exactly how often these duties need to be done. That way the expectations are clear, as well as how to fufill them. If they are not fufilled, then no signature. The same situation applies to "being active".

I'm not sure what it would take to refuse to sign off on Scout Spirit, that one takes some more thought...

>>>What's a Dan Beard program? Is that like 'trailblazers" where they work on T21 skills at camp instead of MBs? If so we avoid those programs. Well... the adults at camp go volunteer and help the staff teach but we steer the scouts in our troop away from that program. It may be good at some summer camps, but not where we go. We like the older scouts to teach the younger guys T21 on a troop campout or at a meeting. Better teaching ratio and don't have to rush thru a skill.

As I've mentioned before, I've rebuilt my troop over the last three years or so.

I scaled back the advancement method, which had become the purpose for our troop instead of a part of its program. I replacing the hole the scaleback left with a far more exciting and expansive outdoors program (the Outdoor Method) and by reinstating the Patrol Method in all its glory. While we've had some scary moments and some irate parents, I am now raking in new kids by the boatload - 18 in the last 8 months, 8 of whom were never Cub Scouts - with far more competent and responsible older boys.

Know what? The advancement method has taken care of itself. The older kids help the younger ones out with getting their books signed, and the younger kids became a lot more interested in advancing through the ranks when they discovered that higher ranks earn you a better spot in the snack line, a better chance to capture a chair by the fire, and other little benefits. The now-older-kids who were thrown into the Patrol Method three years ago are all potential future Eagle Scouts.

When I use the term mill its usually in terms "merit badge mill", I am usually using it in reference to a Summer camp.

Some horror stories...

- The Scouts who signed up for a merit badge, showed up for the first half hour, decided it was ridiculous and left, but were given signed blue cards at the end of the week.

- The Scout who failed Swimming Merit badge with one of our counselors. The counselor would not sign most of the requirements for the badge because the boy flat out could not swim (which is kind of important for the merit badge). Six weeks later he returned from camp with Swimming Merit Badge.

- The Personal Fitness Merit Badge class that was being run by a Scout instead of an adult. This Scout apparently told one of our boys that he had not earned that particular badge himself yet.

I also find the Dan Beard programs at some of these camps to be outright scary, the Scouts come back having learned absolutely nothing.

There are the two new positions available too - Leave No Trace Trainer and Troop Webmaster - that might be available.

Den Chief is also an option, local Cub Scout dens always need Den Chiefs.

The local animal shelter does this around us at several locations as well.

I'm not so sure that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka, the Mormons) would be horribly opposed to allowing homosexual (but not sexually active, which none of the boys should be anyway) young men into their Boy Scout programs if there was some broad discussion ahead of time at the National level and if a change was made for the right reasons (opportunities for all boys to be involved in this quality program) and not the wrong ones (caving to pressure to be "politically correct").

Salt Lake OKs gay rights laws with Mormon backing

From the Associated Press.

http://tinyurl.com/yje74ys (that's a shortened URL, the article is an AP article posted at the San Francisco Chronicle)

It worked for that particular peice of common sense legislation, why not for Scouts?

(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)

All great ideas. The grease fire meeting stands out, I'd definately like to see that myself.

One of the popular ones in my group is the Search & Rescue/First Aid scenero. Pick a Scout (or adult) and send them out to lie down somewhere. Each patrol has to organize a search for the person, then acess the situation and take care of it.

My favorite time was when we first did this a few years ago and had a piece of rope laying out by the Scout. What they didn't know was that was a "power line". None of the patrols made it 30 seconds without adding three more victims as they rushed in without checking the scene out. Any Scout who was involved in that (they are the older kids running things now) makes sure to take time to acess the situation now.

Want to make it even better? Buy a bunch of fake blood cheap from Halloween stores just after the holiday and make it more realistic. There are also places you can go online to order stuff that makes it look and even smell like a real disaster scene (they use this stuff for nurse training). Take the old or expired bandages out of the troop first aid kit (make sure you have fresh replacements already bought) and use those for treatment.

""...and I don't see a reason for them to be excluded ..."

Yeah, that whole "On my honor,... do my duty to God...and morally straight." thing is just a bunch of words, right? I mean, nobody takes it seriously, right? The most important thing is that those athiest and gay Scouts got the nice pretty award pinned on their uniform, so they can feel good about themselves.

But, if the award turns out to mean nothing, and is nothing more than a pretty medal, then I wonder why it would make them feel good about themselves? Kinda reminds me about a certain president and a certain prize, but at least he didn't have to lie to himself in order to receive it. "

Where do we go from there Brent? Should anyone who ever cheated on a spouce/girlfrield/boyfriend be excluded? What about divorcees? Kids who have gotten into fist fights? Kids who have told a lie? All of those people certainly aren't "morally straight", are they? Jesus Christ himself lost his temper and got violent in a Temple, I seriously doubt that even among a bunch of Boy Scouts that anyone is perfect. While I can see exluding certain types of adults (crimminals, maybe even homosexuals, there are good arguments in that direction), I see no reason to exclude any sort of BOY from the program if he doesn't present a danger to other boys or a severe disturbance to the program at large.

Seriously Brent, "but at least he didn't have to lie to himself in order to receive it?" Did my gay buddy who made Eagle somehow tarnish that Eagle Award because it turned out that he was attracted to men? Did he have to work less hard than the straight reciepients? Was his Eagle packet any different, his Eagle project any less demanding? Didn't he earn his merit badges one at a time like the rest of us? Did my friends that viewed themselves as non-religious somehow tarnish the Eagle Scout award because they didn't belong to an organized church/synogogue/temple/etc? Some of these people ran closer to the spirit and the letter of the Scout Oath and Law than I myself could ever hope to, should they have gotten the boot because they couldn't attach a label to their "reverency"? If other Scouts can insert "Allah" or "Yahweh" or "Buddah" or "the many, many Gods of the Hindu faith", would it matter if a Scout decided to use "to do my duty to my fellow man"? Maybe being around God-fearing people will allow an athiest Youth of the present to move toward religion in later years, I have seen it happen, other people here have too.

To me, a boy is a boy is a boy, we should be helping all of them as boys.(This message has been edited by JerseyScout)

I don't think that they'll take a hit. There is a difference between an organization hiding an abuser (a la the church scandels relatively recently) and a member of an organization who is also an abuser.

No one is suggesting that Scouts protected a woman who was abusing children, so I don't see much fallout coming from it.

Thank to for the link on where to order the patches. I don't believe in wearing knots on my uniform (it's Boy Scouts, not Adult Scouts), but if I did I would be attaching this one. I'm going to send some money, and I'll find a home for the circular patch somewhere.

I came through Scouts with some fine people who happened to be athiests or homosexuals (several of whom achieved the rank of Eagle Scout), and I seriously doubt that my current group of Scouts doesn't harbor any gays or non-theists at the moment, even if I don't know of anyone open about either. Scouting is a fine program for them too, and I don't see a reason for them to be excluded from my happy group of Baptists, Catholics, Hindus, various Protestants, Jews, shikhs, card-carrying-NRA-members, Dead Heads, and vegetarians.

Thanks Shriscov

Tell the adults they aren't allowed to build the gateway.

Gah! My troop camped there a number of years when we had people in the 5 Boro Bike Ride, its a very nice camp. It was also nice to be able to camp there for cheap, then take the ferry into NYC for the ride/to visit the Statue of Liberty/etc. How can they get rid of the only Scout camp in the city?

"Nope. We have just discussed everything and solved all the problems. Nothing more to discuss."

Whew, I'm glad we got that sorted. Its probably just that December is kind of busy for most people and kind of light on Scouting for a lot of people. Fortunately not so much for my troop this year, my older Scouts are organizing a winter backpacking trip that they approached me about a month ago. I haven't been able to get these folks (and their now aged out cohorts) to go on a HIKE for the last three years without threatening to feed them to the bears, now they want to go backpacking in the cold???

Its like Christmas came early this year.

Could anyone find a way to directly donate to Afghan Scouting? The umbrella organization (a very noble organization in itself) has a website, but I could find nothing about Scouts on it.

I shared this with my boys tonight, figuring out how to help these Scouts out with either money and/or supplies would be a nice holiday project for the troop.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Overall, the troop is doing excellent and I haven't heard a single complaint from the Scouts themselves about NOT having adults help out/hover (whichever view you take on the action).

Eagle732 ~ "When the parents start complaining and threatening to take there sons elsewhere that's when you know you're getting close to being boy led." I haven't had any of that yet, I guess I'd better keep pushing

Eagle92 ~ I think I am going to try your "there is training and literature available" route for my CC next time our lively debate starts up again (maybe even look up some articles to give him). I keep trying to give him ways that he can funnel what he wants to do to make it a "boy led" way (for example, he wants to show the kids how to cook something different for dinner because dinner is getting boring on trips. I suggested that, instead, he tell the patrols that whoever cooks the best dinner next trip will have the adults will do their KP, with bonus points given for trying something new), but I'm mostly running into walls. We aren't operating on the same wavelength, because we haven't been exposed to the same stuff.

John ~ That's an excellent suggestion. Our next overnighter is the Klondike, so I'll ask the PLC to consider having their menus prepared a week earlier than usual so that there is less of a chance of things being overlooked in the rush to prepare for the trip. I'm not quite sure why this came up at this point, as hunger hasn't really been much of an issue this year (our Quartermasters were a nightmare last year. The boys took steps to change that this year - aka you can't be Quartermaster unless you actually attend trips - which seem to be working much better).

Oak Tree ~ Thanks for the advice.

Background: I've been defacto running my troop for a year and a half (I will get officially bumped to Scoutmaster at the end of the month), and made some major changes in that time, empasizing patrol method and taking the adult leaders almost entirely out of the affairs of the boys. End Background.

My Committee Chair (who is also my roommate, who was also a few years behind me in Scouts) just had it out over "boy-led troop" for the fifth or sixth time. He states that it isn't that the troop isn't working (it is, far better than it has in years), he just feels that it could run better, and that we have more to offer (such as showing a new kid how to cook a pancake if he asks for help). My response was that it is no longer our time or our job to offer, we had our days in Scouts, its now our job to say 'ask your patrol leader" or, if the kid is really freaking out and you are feeling extra nice, to pull an older Scout (perhaps from the patrol next door who is also cooking breakfast) and direct new kid to that Scout (the other jobs include driving the cars and filling out the permits). Its about teaching the patrol leader to delegate responsibility and making sure his bases are covered, not about "good pancakes" versus "slightly charred" pancakes.

To me, boy-led-troop was best defined by the ASM who trained me to take his spot six years ago- "keep them (pointing to the parents) away from them (pointing to the kids). They can figure it out". The obvious exception is if a Scout is placed in physical danger (not using an ax correctly, playing with gas, or something along those lines) or something far outside the rhelm of acceptable (bullying, dropping swear words in front of 11 year olds), that's what I do, I don't baby them.

I was critiqued tonight because some trips "there isn't enough food some trips", and we should be going through the planning stage with them. My first response is, "has anyone starved" (no). Has anyone been really hungry (well I was, which means that the kids probably were too). My next response was "are there Scouts in this troop who know how to plan a menu" (yes). Then it is their job to make sure the menu and shopping list is reviewed, especially as they are the SPL, ASPL, and PLs. My other response was "has it happened every trip?" (no, but it happened in May). "Has it really happened since?"(Not really, although we could have had more food at lunch the November trip) The follow up was "yea, but they make the same things every trip". My response was, "that's their choice. Break it down with the 'bar' after the trip if you are worried about it, or offer a prize that the adults will do KP for the patrol that cooks the best dinner next trip".

I was critiqued because I let the Scouts leave a stove behind in the shed because the patrol leader didn't put the time in to check his box before the trip (he was asked once if his patrol box was ready, he said "yea, yea" while hanging with his buddies, so I let it go). The one patrol had to wait and borrow the other patrols gear. One of the parents had pointed out to me that there was a stove sitting out, and was upset (apparently complaining to the Committe Chair) when I said "that's for them to figure out, they'll learn". Despite complaints from adults, I noticed the Scouts brought extra stoves on this trip.

To me, boy-led troop means that you let them plan and do their thing (even if it flops horribly), then you break it down with them afterwards by asking "What went well?" and "What could have gone better?" You get ideas for how to fix things from them, then throw out a hint of a suggestion for them to discuss if there might be a better way in your mind. Maybe next time you say, "remember last we didn't..., make sure this time," but you don't insert yourself into the planning process if it is something the boys have dealt with before (obviously you are more involved if its something completely new). To me, boy led troop means you should not be directing or discussing how to do something or what to do for anyone below the level of Patrol Leader (and most of the time, Senior Patrol Leader). It means pointing out something to a patrol leader rather than handling it yourself, and it means staying out of the way. It means letting kids screw up and letting things fail, then helping the kids take them apart afterwards to figure out what went wrong. It means biting your tounge 95% of the time.

I've been catching flak from some of the established leaders and from the newer parents (I amped up recruiting efforts and have brought in 16 new Scouts in the last six months, we haven't had that many new Scouts in the last 5 years put together), and I keep hearing "my Scoutmaster was more hands on when I was in my troop" or "we had a core of leaders that really taught us how to do a lot of things". I did the Scoutmaster specific training, and I felt that I was pretty well in line with that, or if anything, still keeping too much resonsibility from the boys. No one is saying things are going badly, everyone thinks they are going really well, but still "it could be more efficient".

I guess my question is, am I way out of line or way off on this? What is a boy-led troop? Do I have one (or at least am I on my way to having one)? What does your boy led troop look like? Is this flak normal?

I'm not really planning on changing anything, despite what I get from the adults, I've only heard grumbling from two Scouts.

If you hear of one Boy Scout leader murdering another in Jersey tonight, it was nice talking to you all!

That's something else, Scouting has a lot different meaning to most of those kids than it does to most American kids. That article definately gets printed out and put where my Scouts can see it (especially the "My parents want Eagle for my college resume" ones)

As far as I know, we do not have a COPE course (at least the local camp does not, the council has merged since I attended, so there may be one at the other camp). The local YMCA camp does have a COPE course, as well as a high ropes (as in, 40 feet up in the trees) course.

This all came up because, two years ago, we ran the classic "Gully Crossing" event at our district Klondike, stretching a rope across two trees and tying off to a hitch on a pick up truck to make it easy to loosen or tighten the slack. The kids had to safely transport their patrol across this rope which spanned a "raging river" (aka, two lines in the dirt), with bonus points given for getting the sled across too.

We were fine for most of the day, and were easily one of the favorite events present when a parent who was following his kid's sled (a no no) saw our event and rushed off to report us for an unsafe event. We got shut down by district (who had approved the event ahead of time) within ten minutes for "not having a properly trained COPE or Climbing instructor" running the event. The rope was over the limit at each end where it was tied off, but sagged down to 2 1/2 to 3 feet from the ground where the Scouts were climbing. We also had spotters and, like I said, had the rope tied off to a truck to make sure that the tension stayed right.

We've been going in circles on "How do we get people trained?" ever since, as we'd like to do rope events and rock climbing while staying street legal. The Klondike is in January, it would be nice to throw an event at them that actually makes them think about what Scouting skills to use to accomplish the task.

Alright, from this website, it looks like there is no BSA certification for this, they merely list places where you can find instructors. As my alumni were both climbing instructors at a rock climbing gym (a local place, so obviously not one of the places listed on that site), it would seem to me that they would be qualified for what we want to do as long as they took the online Climb on Safely training from the BSA.