jambo

I think ' LongHoul 'has it confused between religion, and God. God is what you believe in, but religion is the medium through which one believe in. Therefore, the discussion stands as is: " Scout leaders should stay out of politics and religion ", that should be the domain at home,or privately ,and not in a unit setting.Definitely an individual believe . jambo

My opinion: " Scout leaders should stay out of politics and religion" it's scouting, and not a debating society ! jambo

Godwin: I enjoyed your account of phylosophy of scouting, but with all due respect, I try to stay out of politics and religion. Scouting seems to me, is where I am coming from. jambo

To Writer: I want to wish you lots of success, maybe you will stimulate some of our youth into joining Scouting. But, you must remember Scouting started in England, and in order to catch the spirit, you have to go to the origins. Scouting is not a USA idea , but an interantional one. Maybe someone will write a book on this.? Good luck...jambo

Sorry to see your dad pass away...he would have been a good recource for your book. Here is my second input !

So you are going to write a book on World Scouting? That is great ! You have to write from all different prospectives. You should do a lot of interviews....of current scouts...of old timers...the philosophy of the professionals....the concept of boy run troops and why they are not working mnay times ...the summer camp operations verses the troop camp operations....high adventure dreams....how cub scouting has ruined the organization...how woman Scoutmaster is destroying manhood of the boy....Why training could be improved... without announcement you should infiltrate some great rich units, and then some financially deprived units....is scouting ranks to difficult...Observe Council, Regional, and National operation....why there is no democracy in the BSA,,,Scoutmaster have no vote , or decision in it's operations...How does international Scouting compare with USA...travel to Geneva, Switzerland and see how they operate...Have the aims of Baden Powell been accomplished...visit international camp Kandersteg...what type of Scouting will we have in our space age environment of the future ...are we going to be called " Space Scouts " ?

Include a lot of pictures, from all over the world...I better go...or I will be the author. jambo

PS.Read my orher sites, and you will get an idea where I am coming from.

So you are going to write a book on World Scouting? That is great ! You have to write from all different prospectives. You should do a lot of interviews....of current scouts...of old timers...the philosophy of the professionals....the concept of boy run troops and why many times they are not working ...the summer camp operations verses the troop camp operations....high adventure dreams....how cub scouting has ruined the organization...how woman Scoutmaster is destroying manhood of the boy....how training could be improved... without announcement you should infiltrate some great rich units, and then some financially deprived units....is scouting ranks to difficult, and not stimulating ...Observe Council, Regional, and National operation....why there is no democracy in the BSA,,,Scoutmaster have no vote , or decision in it's local or national operations...How does international Scouting compare with USA...travel to Geneva, Switzerland and see how they operate...Have the aims of Baden Powell been accomplished...visit international camp Kandersteg...what type of Scouting will we have in our space age environment of the future ...are we going to be called " Space Scouts " ?

Include a lot of pictures, from all over the world...I better go...or I will be the author. jambo

Old grey eagle: I appreciate your response, but I have a feeling you did not have much experience with the a Troop committee ? A good committe with dedicated motives, and supporing the Scoutmaster, is a blessing. I can tell you many stories, where Troops have folded, because of the over bearing CC of the unit. But, I will not site any examples, at this time. ..." Keep it Simple, make it fun "...jambo

Kahits...I have read your profile, and I see that you had plenty of Scouting experience. I don't feel like arguing with you on the aspects of what your committee or your church wants you to do ? My thinking is, that they should fully support the Scoutmaster, visa SPL and the boys. Either they leave or you leave, there should be no politics when you try your best, to motivate and run the unit you love. This concept of boy run units is great when you are flourishing and a large unit. But first, you should grab the bull by the horns, and run with it, philosophically speaking. All of you like examples, without revealing the location or unit...

" I was in a dilemma many years ago, after taking plenty of training courses, why can't I use the theories I learned, and implemented them ? I went to neighboring state , and by sheer accident, ran into a Scout unit, which I observed .They had a very active 60 boy Troop. They had a diesel bus...their own Scout building...The sponsoring institution was their own, called_______, The commissioner was also a Troop member ( he wore two hats) . They had five ASMs, of high rank. When they had a financial drive, the whole town cooperated. They did not participated in Council financial drives, but gave them out of their own treasury $ 1000 a year, to get them off their backs. Every boy went to summer camp for free, for two weeks . They had a large Alumni association which met four times a year, and assisted a needy boys in becoming a scout. The SPL who ran the troop was of high rank, and active.

They had boy run " news bladder ", of the past activities , promoting Scouting and well planned out yearly calender.,with the approval of the SM/PLC .It was very well organized, and the boys had their own Patrol rooms where they would have their meetings. The main hall was decorated with scout paraphernalia and momentous of past history of the unit., etc. etc."

I spoke to the well decorated Scoutmaster and some his ASM's...And he advised me, don't let your committee members take any of the training courses, you as a SM tell them what they should know of Scouting. He told me more...but then I have to write a book. In retrospect we have to improve Scouting, but the methodology the way it is presented to us....is not working. jambo.

We need Eagle Scout caliber men like you. After college, I suggest you go into proffesional Scouting. We need young blood, with futurestic ideas, imagination, to run the Nationl HQ's. Boy Scouts of America, should not be a business organization, but to be an organization to benefit our boys. Thanks for being a Scout, ...jambo

Are you looking for " jambo " or a jambo thread ?

I would suggest we consentrate on recruitment of boys into Scouting,,,if we don't, then we don't need a National Jamboree.!...jambo

I could agree with most of you, spending your precious time on this forum, trying to keep a troop alive. We have deeper problems!. That of the national council not promoting Scouting the way it should be.Did your local film crew ever go to a camporee ? But, if a boy broke a window at a bank, that would be in every front page, and the local news. When did you see a good Scouting film, on TV or anywhere else ? Do newspapers ever mention Scout Sunday in February ? We had World Jamboree in England just now , and did " Sixty Minutes " cover that event, where 136 countries celebrated Scouting ? You all know the answer!.Our so called " Boys Life " is for regular boys only, but does not promote Scouting. Rarilly do I see an article on Scouting. My boy leadership was more interested in the adult " Scouting magazine ", then 'play boy.' (ha,ha)...just a joke.

My suggestion is for Troops, who try to survise...is to merge with another strong unit, then there try to support the leadership, wheter it is boy or adult type. Keep that Scouting flame alive..jambo

Dear Elizabeth, I have read your concerns, and I sybethize with you...The scouting the way I see it, is for the boys. Let the Scoutmaster do his job, it is difficult enough , not to have to deal with over bearing parents. If you, don't like the program your SM/SPL is having, may I suggest you take your boy to another unit. Sorry,,,I am of the old type thinking,.... when we had Troops that enjoyed Scouting. jambo

I wish , I can be of more of an assistance, Dale ! ...but now all I can be is an consultant. It seems to me, you are on the right track. To run an efficient, and well run troop is not easy. You have to be an administrator,motivator,trainer,child psychologist,financier,organizer,and etc. I finally was able to get my Troop up to par. It took a few years. Finally, I was able to mold a large and active troop. Many boys from other units started to transfer to mine,,,even without the so called " official transfer form ", which caused me a lot of problems. Other unit leaders complaint to the council , that I was stealing their boys. I am going to leave you with one thought ... ! " It is not how good the kid is as a Boy Scout, but how long you can keep up his interest in Scouting. What use is having the boy for only one year...with all the character building techniques , etc. ...when he only going to stay in Scouting for a short time " I have faith that you will succeed. jambo ( read my other sites )

Mr. Roberts, I wish I was 27 years of age, those years are gone,,,but I had a exciting Scouting life. Try to build your unit up in numbers. You at least need two patrols,to be functional. At first, try to pick a charismatic boy to be your first SPL. Later on , then they can elect one,and don't make it a popularity contest. Sit down with parents informally and outline to them your plans. Choose your committee very carefully, make sure they are on your side, or otherwise you are going to have a lot problems down the road. Do not send them to training courses, the less they know of the bureaucratic system , the better off you will be.You tell them of Scouting what they have to know. You and your assistants,should take as many courses as you can...use only the methods that will work for you, and are not outdated.On this

forum you will find brilliant people, who probably will give you their opinions, but use it discrationally. Here is wishing you the best. jambo

To Beaver Scouter:

I had so many hits, that I just did not have the time to answer them all . I am in a rush, since I was invited to attend one of our local scouting events. Most of the time , I keep my opinions to myself, because I don't want to argue with inexperience people in Scouting. jambo-www

Please forward this to our forum readers, Thanks . jambo

Wow !What a reply , from so many of you, Thank you ! I barely have enough time to answer you all.

_________About our glorious UC commissioners ? I will withhold my comments until further notice. I will tell you stories later on , that will curl your hair.(ha,ha)

__________Did you ever see the BSA national by-laws ? Well, you should...it is as large as the Bible, and it deals about every subject imaginable. It took me 3 hours to read it, since it was written in legal language, and I still could not comprehend it.

________Our bus at first was owned by the Troop, then we had the title transferred to our Church, We had 3 adults, who had CDL licenses, and one father was a mechanic. Our Insurance was not a commercial one , but a Non profit one, limited driving type.Oh, yes we still had our BSA decals, we sort of disobeyed DE request to remove them.Every one thought it was our Troop's bus .

_______The Charter organization usually does not want to bother with this equipment left behind by disbanded unit. They call the council to get rid of it.

______Clarification on my opinions ? Well, you see the BSA does not tell about these so called "odd and geeky "stories, you usually hear them , at the coffee clutches, at roundable, scouter dinners,camporee/jamboree ,from Scout leaders who have left Scouting or got dismissed by an over bearing Committee Chairman, who most likely had a personality conflict with this unit leader.

________I have to talk to my ex chairman,who was much more involved with OA, then I. He is the one who told me about the OA chapter that got disbanded ! He was pretty high in the professional leadership at the regional office. ( that is above the Council and below the National hierarchy ) He was my friend,and we discussed many good and bad attributes of our organization. He also, indicated to me that he had very little input to change, correct certain BSA policies. I as a volunteer, I could do much more then he did,. because he had to tow the line, for he could be fired. He had a nice house and a family to look after , and he could not afford to go against some of the policies.

Thanks for your opinions fellow Scouters,.." live and learn " jambo

Transporting our scouts is a national problem. At first, at my former "ghetto type" unit," where four letter word was the norm ". We had to do it the hard way...WE WALKED...RODE THE BUS OR THE TRAIN ! Lucky if one of the fathers at least would transport the heavy Troop equipment.The troop program was declining , and the troop was losing membership . The US army, did help us sometimes, for a while...until someone complaint this , to the Council.After that ,d we could not get this privilege anymore from the military. We did not give up ! I noticed the so called " well to do...or rich Troops, have plenty of parents with latest model vehicles, could easily assist their unit in transportation. But, that was not the case with us. My boys could not afford uniforms,camping equipment, summer camp fees and etc. But, one thing we generated with the boys is " CAN DO " spirit.

Some of you doubt me, when I say, that the council has nothing against Troops having their own bus , titled under the Troop's number , If you are still confused on this issue.?...Call your National, Regional, and local Executive...and pose this question. On many dozen of training courses that I have taken , we were informed that the National does not sanction the Troops owning property, boats,buses and etc. And they also informed us ,that they can be taken away...since under the so called " BSA by laws " it belongs to the Boy Scouts of America "... As you know, we solved this problem, by having the bus registerd under our sponsor's name.

I know you guys, like when I give examples :

....... " Many moons ago I visited the Scouts in Thailand ( Siam) ...the Scout Association there , has an arrangement with the city to provide their scout units with FREE bus transportation for outdoor outings into the country side. What is our Scout association doing to assist Troops to get their boys out into the outdoors , at no cost ????. You ask the question...and I will be waiting for the answer ?".

Watch for my other " threads ', AND YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING NEW ! (HA,HA,)

Happy Scouting, jambo

How to start a new Boy Scout Troop ? The example I will provide , I know,that some will disagree , and be claiming again, that it is not the way the national training manual has it set up.!

""""many years ago I was approached by an individual from a Catholic church, that they had 60 boys that wanted Scouting. He said, that , training cadre came to the parents meeting, and lectured them how to organize this new unit. He said it scared most of the parents away, and they got discouraged, and were not sure if they wanted their boy to join ?. He found out that I had a very successful troop, he wondered if I would meet with this new established group of men, and give them the advice on how to get this new unit off the ground ?

In a nut shell, I told them some of my basic theories :

a.... choose a young man, who has been in Scouting for A good while, and has a good rapport with the boys. Send him to the training courses, but he should have an open mind, and use only the concepts he can implement .and work with .

b...Keep your committee membership to a minimum. Choose such members who will not have a personality conflict WITH THE NEW SM, but they will be willing to support the Scoutmaster/PLC program decisions. DO NOT SEND YOUR COMMITTEE MEMBERS , TO DISTRICTS TRAINING COURSES. This will only confuse them, and they will develop an ego, that they are in charge, and can fire the SM at will. This most likely demoralizes a new leader..Many times the new leader leaves and the troop committee ends up choosing an other one.

C.... I volunteered some of my " Leadership Corps " scouts to come into the troop and act as temporary PL, SPL until their New Scoutmaster sets up an election of the leadership of the Troop, and is able to explain, the PLC concept to the boys. The leadership corps, had a very action packed meetings,challenges. games , scout skill competition., until the unit got itself on the feet . With a lot of praise and awards issued to the winners...etc.

c.... I Suggested to have the Holy Name Society to be the primary sponsor,( since they had 2000 members, and were better of financially then the church . The church provided the GYM, classes for patrol meetings, and a room for equipment.

d...I suggested to have an overnight camp to a cabin,ASP... where the SM would have a chance to find out ,bond, train and find out who is who,....Stimulate, and motivate potential boy leadership by creating games ,.....to observe what boy has good leadership qualities.

I could go on and on.!...but then I might end up writing a book. The rest of the info , or ideas you can get from basic training courses, Scouting magazines,literature , Youth psychology books, found in research libraries.

I returned back to this Troop, a few years later,and I noticed that they had a very successful unit in operation. For an example : They chartered a bus to go to summer camp..The committee gave me a certificate of appreciation. They used most of my theories, and also some from the district unit commissioner's.

I hope you learned from my example that there is: " more then one way to skin a cat " Ha,ha, ....jambo

Beaver, and all our other participants:

I noticed that you are very popular, in disseminating your wisdom , as you see it. That is great, we sometimes need a point of view from two sides of the issue.

That was a bit funny, the way you explained the " resurrecting" of the dead threats. I would even go further," we need to wake up some of them , and stimulate them into some objective and subjective controversy. ?, This is great , to have this " Scouter forum ', ... where one has a chance to voice ones opinion, without being censored, nor asked to leave. Scouting needs this type of dialog, so we can hear , what some of us old timers, have to say on some of the subjects in this debate. Our time on this wonderful world of Scouting , is limited...so let us say it ,and depart with council fire smoke, into the sky.

Thanks for pointing out this "date" concern, I will try to look at it more carefully. Here is to Scouting, jambo-www

To all the Scouters who replied to my threat:

Wow !What a reply , from so many of you, that I barely have enough time to answer you all.

_________About our glorious UC commisioners ? I will withhold my comments until further notice. I will tell you stories, that will curl your hair.(ha,ha)

__________Did you ever see the BSA national by-laws ? Well, you should...it is as large as the Bible, and it deals about every subject imaginable. It took me 3 hours to read it, since it was writen in legal language, and I still could not caprehend it.

________Our bus at first was owned by the Troop, then we had the title transsferred to our Church, We had 3 adults, who had CDL licences, and one father was a mechanic. Our Insurance was not a commercial one but a Non profit one limited driving type.Oh, yes we still had our BSA decals, we sort of disobeyed DE request to remove them.Every one thought it was our Troop's bus .

_______The Charter orginization ussualy does not want to bother with this equipment left behind by disbanded unit. They call the council to get rid of it.

______Clarification on my opinions ? Well, you see the BSA does not tell about these so called "odd and geeky "stories, you ussualy hear them on some, at the coffee cluthes, at roundable, scouter dinners,camporee/jamboree ,from Scout leaders who have left Scouting or got dismissed by an over bearing Commitee Chairman, who most likely had a personality conflict with this unit leader.

________I have to talk to my ex chairman,who was much more involved with OA, then I. He is the one who told me about the OA chapter that got disbanded ! He was pretty high up in the proffesional leadership at the regional office. ( that is above the Council and below the National higherochy ) He was my friend,and we discussed many good and bad atributes of our organization. He also, indicated to me that he had very little input to change, correct certain BSA policies. I as a volunteer, could do much more then he did. becouse he had to tow the line, or he could be fired. He had a nice house and a family and he could not afford to go against some of the policies.

Thanks for your oppinions fellow Scouters,.." live and learn " jambo

NYC Scouters : , This is a national problem, and many units, like my former unit solved the problem...BUYING A USED SCHOOL BUS...All the adult leaders and some commitee men, contributed personal money to buy in good shape ,10 year old school bus.Our program has improved, becouse we could travel further even to the mountains in the winter, to enjoy the adventure of hunting of the "abdonimal snow man" with the scouts. We did not have to leave the poorer scouts home, becouse parents could not provide transportation. The money was returned to all the leaders, by charging the scouts $10 for each trip.We avareged 30 to 40 scouts per trip, We also had one escort vehicle with CB communication if we needed it.in It was cheaper do that, then have a parent use and abuse their vehicles. Well. it did not last to long. At one of our Camporee's we were told by the executive, that we are not allowed to have a bus, since it was aganst BSA Inc., policy. We were fortunate enough to have our church take on this responsibility...but we received a lot of flank having Scout decals on the bus. You see, where there is a will, there is a way. I hope, I was able to give you a constuctive suggestion, it up to you to implement it. jambo

Ea, and all my old timers on this forum , don't be dismaid ...SCOUTING..if run properly, should gain strength...and will flurish. I enjoyed reading your biography. I was in England (Kent), and made many friends there in Scouting. I have learend a lot from them and I was invited to take the woodbadge course in London , but due to my military obligations, I was not able to attend . I agree cubing of today, seem not to help Scouting of the (11 to 18) age group. A lot of their programs are to much " the scouting type " and not games and crafts, like it should be.

The change has to come from the volunteers, they should throw out most of the proffesionals, and let a commitee of active Scoutmasters make the national decisions,and run this wonderfull organization/program, of what is good for the boy in Scouting,....and not what is good for the $ 100,000 a year executives . Don't make the " By laws " of the national council, be so strict that it hampers Scout movement. Let's not have the buracracy and authoritarion phylosophy destroy this movement. There is hope for another 100 years of Scouting, but I and some others Scouters around this forum campfire will not be around. Keep that Scouting Spirit burning forever...jambo

Dear " eliz -daddio ", It hurts me to hear that Scouting, you and me have experienced, is not happening today. With all the training courses,(basic,start ups and even woodbadge ) they are not teaching the most important element, that is to have an active,adventurous,interesting, challenging program for the boys. The philosophy of " Boy run troop ", without the experienced guidence, is not working. By the time boy leaders find out what they are doing and learn from their mistakes. Half of the troop will be joining another unit next door to you. I feel sometimes, units should be consolidated, so as to maximize the adult help and leadership. What you need is a young energetic man ( preferably with scouting experience) volunteer to lead the boys. He should be able to ignite and motivate them becoming scouts, and guide them to adventure. If he becomes a Scoutmaster...then get out of his way...and let him run the Troop, the way he knows. And.you will see the troop grow, like our Baden Powel did , would have done it in the old days. Read my comments on other sites. Wishing you Scouting...jambo

" Lisa & bob " and " john in KC ", I am glad that you have responded, and ignited our interest in OA. I had a giggle when you associated my thinking to Harry Potter ? . The difference is that one is a fiction, but other one is a reality, which occurred many years ago in my Council. If you understand, or maybe to young to fathom how the BSA, Inc. operates, and why Order of the Arrow,( a great organization ) is loosing interest with the volunteer adults and boys in Scouting. Many of the scouter's that I associate with now and in my glorious past , would attest that OA had become an average, mediocre or a 'so-so' type of establishment . It has been so set up for a purpose ( without a referendum of active Scouter's ), so the chapters don't overwhelm the financial goals of the individual councils. Lisa & Bob, may have implied that it might not be the " truth ",what I am presenting ?. You may view this as you like, but I speak from life long experience in Scouting. You never know " BP " spirit may be amongst you, one day...at a Jamboree,Camporee, round table, or even at your district or council meetings, as a silent partner. jambo

PS...Read the by laws of the National Council,on who has the last word on possession of units land properties , vehicles, boats, airplanes and etc. of the units that have folded. Oh, yes small items as saws,axes, tents and .etc., a negotiated agreement is made to distribute it to local units,which might have need of it.

Being a Unit commissioner is nice, but in my opinion most of them take on the job for the sake of publicity/politics in helping a youth program, like the Boy Scouts of America. If you notice many politicians in their resume, claim to be members ? It helps them to create an image that their are youth oriented individuals, therefore increasing their chances to get more votes. Welcome to the politics in Scouting...I have seen it...and I don't like it !

If you really want to help our youth to become better citizens ?I suggest, join us in the trenches of Scouting,and get dirty !By becoming a leader of boys. You will learn a lot from them, and it will help you , to become a better Scoutmaster. jambo

Parent motivation, information and orientation for all the parents in Scouting is very important , if you want to succeed. The parents have to know what is going on in the troop, without lecturing them to death. Here is what I did:

A.. PLC voted to have a Troop bulletin published each month, in charge would be our JASMS.and article from PL's were welcome .

B...Every 2 month ,we would have a court of honor/ parent night , and a motivational skid put on either by patrols or our " Leadership Corps " The scouts would show the parents what they have learned...stretcher carry, bandaging, ham radio communications, and slide presentation of our last canoe trip down a ' crocodile, shark invested river ; ha,ha, joke,,,

C...We would invite any parent, older brother, grandparent or a friend of the family to attend our committee meetings , without registering them with the Boy Scouts. They had all the rights to voice their opinion, but had no vote on the committee .

Many parents complimented me ,for putting on this " Parents night show ", they enjoyed seeing their boy enjoying Scouting, by showing off the stuff they have learned. I have to run...see you again on some other site.." Be Prepared to enjoy Scouting game " Jambo