isvirtual

"what do you call a Scout that came through a program that did everything for him and was not really required to show responsibility or put any extra-effort into earning his Eagle award?"

I call him the unfortunate result of a poorly managed troop. This needs to be taken up with the CC and SM. It seems there are some practices that probably should be improved. It might be time to fix this or move on to a unit that better fits your needs. The boy is still an Eagle Scout and will be for life.

I understand your feeling the Eagle rank wasn't earned according to your standard but apparently it was earned according to the standards of the Boy Scouts of America. There were nearly 50 opportunities for adults to check this boys progress toward earning his Eagle. Regardless of the rigor of process, he still succeeded according to the terms of these adults.

In our district we have "Eagle Mill" troops that focus on advancement and create a lot of Eagle scouts. We have other troops that focus on the outdoor program and promote fewer Eagles. Boys (and their parents) switch from one to the other all the time. I've watched scouts start high school and become scarce in both of these types of troops. It is a function of today's society. This is one reason the BSA removed the time in grade requirements of the lower ranks.

Regardless, he's still as much an Eagle scout as Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Steven Spielberg, H Ross Perot, and Walter Cronkite.

"when a Troop's program promotes this and when scouts make eagle early (young) and leave the program, do you consider this type of program a failure as a Scoutng Program? "

We have to look at the trends. If there is a single incident where the youth finished his requirements and didn't return, then we must hope he remembers his journey and contributes later as an adult. If there is a long list of youth who earn their Eagle rank then disappear, the troop leadership needs to be investigated. It is not the boy's responsibility to keep the program interesting and rewarding.

Either way, the boy has done the work to the satisfaction of the counselors, the scoutmaster, and the board of review members. Apparently, all of these adults didn't consider him a failure when they approved his paperwork.

I agree with some of the prior posters, the term "paper eagle" is derogatory and unfair to the scouts. Perhaps we should call the real problem "paper leaders".

I just completed my ticket. I'm looking for ideas for my beading ceremony. I'd like to keep it low key yet share my fun and sense of accomplishment surrounding Wood Badge.

Any suggestions.

I used to be a bear...

Appreciate the leaders you have.

I've seen some units where the SM refuses to delegate even though he is far too overworked to do his job well. The result is a large number of the trained leaders have checked out along with the older scouts.

Much of this could be avoided if the SM allowed others to have jobs and didn't interfere while they are trying to do them. He could work through the SPL to send messages to the troop instead of sending them himself. This would empower the SPL and relieve more of his workload. If we suggest this to him, he gets defensive and supercritical.

After about 3 years of this kind of organization, I ask myself "Why bother"? I'm sure I could do other things with the district or council but this unit has created a bit of burnout.

Any suggestions?

I completely agree with LPC_Thumper. Those who buy into the concept of a "Paper Eagle" seem to miss something. To "earn" Eagle a scout must spend a minimum of 17 months active in Scouting. Most take much longer. He must meet with at least 18 adults conducting Board of Reviews. He must complete 7 Scoutmaster conferences. He must work with at least 21 Merit Badge Counselors. He must complete 16 months in a Position of Responsibilty. Personally, I cannot imagine any unit where a scout (with or without his parent's help) can fake his way through all 46 of these checkpoints. Even if this were possible, I would blame the leadership, not the scout. I encourage you to put the blame and the label where it belongs.

Scouting cannot play by the same rules as when I was a first class scout. Many of the changes have improved the overall program and made it much safer for the boys. Some have diluted the program and shifted the focus to more contemporary needs. This doesn't make the program less valuable. It does make it different.

Why Eagle...

It looks great on a resume.

It looks good on a college application.

It looks outstanding on a uniform.

The Eagle knot on an adult uniform is really cool.

The recognition from your community is unique.

The respect from the rest of the troop is welcome.

Statistically only 4% of all scouts become an Eagle Scout. When you are 40 years old, fefw will understand you were SPL, VP of a venture crew, active in OA, and camping 2-3 times each month. Nearly EVERYONE will understand you are an Eagle Scout. Think of earning your Eagle as an investment.

My son and I are involved in a troop that has an excellent program for first year boys combined with a strong advancement program. The Boys have lots of exposure to learn and use the skills as they are earning their Eagle.

The downside is scouting seems to lose its appeal about the time the scout hits High School. Sure the Eagle Charge talks about giving back, but it doesn't say the boy should skip school, band, sports, clubs, socializing, and all the other demands on his time.

What advice can I give my son and the other boys who are older (some are Eagles) and don't feel the troop has much left to offer them?

I am the Eagle Advisor at my unit. I have a scout who has completed all the Eagle badges and his position of responsibility. He wrote an Eagle Project Proposal but didn't submit this because it turned out to be more work than he (or his Dad) thought was necessary.

This week, I've learned that he is no longer interested in completing a project or becoming an Eagle scout. He is very busy with school, work, clubs, etc., and simply burned out on scouting.

I would like to say something to him that might motivate him. He turns 18 next April.

Any suggestions?

Mike

I used to be a bear...

What an interesting question and enlightening discussion.

Personally, I think the boys who wait until they are out of time show far less maturity, leadership, and responsibility than those who "get their ticket punched" before high school.

As my unit's Eagle Advisor, I have seen both. I think the trend (there are exceptions) in my unit is to either be gung ho about advancement and earn all the ranks in a reasonably short time or to get to life and disappear. In my unit, over 60% of our boys are Life Scouts. 80% of these are seldom seen at outings, troop meetings, service projects, or anywhere there is scouting until they decide to finish their Eagle. There is another interesting dynamic in that many of these have recently turned 16 (legal driving age) when they get this intense motivation to finish.

Either way, the process is very clearly documented in the Boy Scout handbook, the district advancement committee handbook, and on the internet. There are no shortcuts. The District and Council see to this. Someone has to sign-off on the scout's progress. If the scout seems to be advancing too quickly, perhaps this is an indictment of the unit and merit badge programs. I cannot not blame this on the maturity of the Scout.

I know I would rather have young Eagle scouts working with the troop, properly wearing their uniform, helping the younger boys learn their trade, and sitting side-by-side with new scouts in the merit badge programs than to have an older Life scout show up for Philmont, Seabase, or other high adventure but never help out the unit between these trips. Where is the maturity and giving back in this scenario?

In our unit, the Eagle Scout plans his own COH. He can write the script for every speaker, he can ask the speaker to spend 5 minutes, or he can ask them to speak their mind. My son's Eagle COH lasted about 35 minutes and was fantastic.

I'm confused. The first amendment to the Bill of Rights is:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If the ACLU forces government instututions to stop allowing the Scouts to meet on their property aren't they advocating violation of our first amendment rights?

ex: congress shall make no law ... prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Where does it say this cannot or should not happen on government property? Especially since government property is public property.

There are at least two threads dedicated to this question. Look for Eagle Scout Funding and Eagle Scout Expenses in the advancement forum.

In short, there are no restrictions on where the money can come from. If the scout wants to buy this out of his own pocket, that is allowed even if it isn't encouraged.

His approach to funding should be included in the written project proposal.

Ideally, the writeup should include enough detail to enable another life scout to completely take over the project just by following the writeup.

I see a lot of parallels between this and scouting.

The smoke and bells were the means to notify the world before the prolification of cell phones, radio, and other media. It has worked for centuries and still does.

Be Prepared, Do a good turn daily, A Scout is... etc. has worked for a century and still does. Why change something that works so well.

Did you notice the bells are operated by motors and gears. I found that interesting. I also have watched the scouting program evolve to incorporate new thinking and new cautions (youth protection, female leaders, etc.) because it adds value to the program.

Using your pancake system, I think one of our patrols voted at least two dozen times on our last outing and we still haven't elected anyone.:-)

I am the Eagle Advisor for our Troop. At this point in time, I have 27 Life scouts who are 6 steps away from becoming Eagles. For various reasons, most of them are dragging their feet. Some because their parents dont believe in younger Eagles. Some because they are looking for the easiest path. Some because they have many extracurricular activites.

I have one scout who suddenly reintroduced himself to our troop and the Eagle process. He finished his project proposal, got it signed, worked his project, and is not writing up the results. He had already completed the required merit badges, time, and leadership positions. I complemented him on his sudden burst of energy and he told me his Dad wouldn't let him drive until he copleted his Eagle rank. I asked him how he felt about that. His reply. I should have listened to Dad a long time ago. He wasn't bitter. He wasn't angry. I think he really appreciates his Dad's position and respects him for not giving in.

I've watched this boy take incredible initiative and recognize astounding results becuase his parents were firm. I asked him if he was impressed with what he can accomplish with proper motivation. He smiled as he realized what he did in a short time to complete this badge. He and the rest of us are very proud of his on the job training.

My own son is an Eagle so I asked him his opinion about the "wheels for wings" approach. He said it was a great idea as long as the parents made it clear at an early age this was expected. He did not feel it a good idea for them to wait until he was eligible to drive before mentioning the expectation.

Those of us who recognize the value in the Eagle badge and who want the best for our children should remove obstacles and motivate them to earn this. Since there is a definite time limit, there is no option to do it later. If there were... I too would become an Eagle scout.

I learned during Outdoor Leader Training the standard scouting pocketknife with the can opener, punch, and large, decently crafted blade is the best knife for a scout. I'm inclined to agree. The quality of the steel lets it be easily sharpened. It holds an edge for a while. It is not too small or too large, and it has most of the gadgets any scout might need on an outing.

Is there a minimum effort typically expected from an Eagle Service Project? Is this documented? How does your unit/district/council typically gauge a project in regards to size and leadership potential?

What fantastic responses. I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

I am a member of the same troop, although I do help out with the district.

I did ask him and he wants us both in uniform.

I used to be a bear...

My son will have his Eagle COH soon. Should I, as a scouter, wear my own uniform or should I simply wear a suit and let the ceremony focus on him?

As a long-term scouter who didn't make Eagle (regrets), I am proud of my son who would fit the description on this board as a "paper Eagle". I can assure you, as a fellow scouter, he was not allowed to cut any corners. My son earned every merit badge, attended the outings, service projects, scoutmaster conferences, and boards of review. His project was bigger than most. I should note that our Troop has 28 Life scouts right now between the ages of 13 and 17 who are a project away from being an Eagle scout. Several younger scouts in our troop chose to complete their Eagle before sports, girls, cars, band, school, and other distractions diminished their time to devote to scouting. Others are far too interested in the fun to spend time doing the work. Personally, I would rather have those who can do both running my troop instead of the "lifers" who participate only for the outings.

The ball is now in the troop's court. The Eagle scout has proven his abilities and understanding of the program. It is up to the troop to offer a program that is more compelling than the distractions I listed above. If the adults insist on running the program, there is no room for youth leadership. If he is a member of a weak patrol and asks to be moved, the troop should accomodate him instead of ridiculing him for not showing up every week. When he tries to participate, he should be encouraged instead of mocked because he is a "Paper Eagle".

Clearly any boy smart enough to become an eagle scout before he is 17 needs an organization smart enough to keep him interested. If that's not happening, the scouters should look into the mirror before they start labelling the boys.

I think we are clear on the med forms when they are handled by the person responsible. I would like guidance on the disclosure of protected health information (PHI) when the "need to know" doesn't exist until an incident occurs.

For example, a boy is taking meds (say Ritalin or Prozac) and is sent to summer camp. Do we tell the entire adult staff to be on the lookout for specific behavior that might be memorable. To tell them about this is to divulge PHI. To not tell ALL the adults about this exposes the child (and the adults) to unnecessary risks. As an adult, I would want to know about this kind of thing for the 15 minutes on wednesday afternoon that I might be the only adult nearby who can help this child.

I agree with the previous poster, it is something national should look into and revise the forms or give us more specific guidance.

YiS,

Mike

My son has completed the Eagle BOR in November and the troop received the completed, signed paperwork from national in December.

Since he has not had his Eagle Court of Honor, he has not yet received his Eagle rank badge.

Should he continue to wear the life badge until his COH?

Should he remove the life badge and wear none until his COH?

Should the troop provide the eagle badge immediately?

How is this handed in other units?

I attended a NESA day with my troop last year. This is a district event where NESA teaches a bunch of Eagle required badges for any scouts in the district.

I sat through the emergency preparedness presentation to approximately 40 scouts. While waiting patiently for my turn to help out, I noticed some older scouts in the back of the gym playing games on their cell phone. One played while another 3-4 watched. All of them completely ignored the counsellor.

After a couple of minutes I went over and sat behing the scouts. I asked them if they felt they were earning their Eagle required merit badge. Rather than answer they moved to another part of the gym.

I hope I recognize these boys when I'm conducting their Eagle BOR. I would certainly walk them through the part about a scout is trustworthy, kind, and obedient. Unfortunately, I don't think this will happen.

In a program where we have this many scouts listening to a single counsellor, it is logical that some are not going to pay rapt attention. Our hope is they are exposed to the information and they at least learn where to look it up if they need it. I don't think it is the optimal method for teaching a skill. Yet, I do belive this approach competes well with sports, band, and the fumes.

Our troop and district has stated a scout must appear in full "official" uniform to participate in a BOR. Is this an official BSA policy or is it acceptable for the scouts/adults to wear more comfortable BDUs or other clothing that matches the "official" uniform colors?

I would add the "official" clothing rarely fits well. The trousers and shorts are so uncomfortable most of use wear dark green from REI, Galyans, or elsewhere.

I have been told a scout must wear "official" uniform clothing to a Board of Review or they will not be allowed to complete the BOR. I think this is absurd considering the cost and the outright discomfort involved in the official clothes.

OA is a brilliant concept with a faulty implementation. Let me explain.

My son, who is now an Eagle scout was one of several boys in our troop who did not get nominated this year. He and the others were farther ahead on their advancement than most of the troop. He also does not attend the same middle school as the bulk of the troop.

During the weekend of the tapout, he had other commitments. My wife spoke to the scoutmaster about the tapout and his advice (knowing my son wasn't elected) was to be sure they attend the campfire. The two of them drove 1.5 hours (I was at wood badge training) and were humiliated. A smart SM would/should have suggested they not participate knowing it was a long drive and they were comign JUST for the tapout. I have lost respect for him because of this cruelty.

So... the troop election is just a popularity contest. The boys who were not nominated were far more qualified based on the posted quals. The election and subsequent handling by the SM left a bad taste in our mouths about OA. By the way, I am also an OA member. The ordeal was fascinating.

You guys are absolutely on target. The troop "should" review the projects until they are complete before they are submitted to the DAC. As my troop's Eagle Advisor, this is my approach. Often, I will take 3 or more passes through the project with the scout offering tips and asking questions until we feel it is ready for submission.

As a member of the DAC, we realize some troops do this very well. We also see some troops that do not. To keep it fair, every project gets a good review by several members of the DAC. Most of us can predict the success of projects based on the troops from where they were received.

It is good advice for smaller/younger troops to review the DAC process and guidelines. We have Troop, District, and Council documentation that tells the scouts how to prepare their project write-up. All of this is overwhelming and a good advisor will distill this for the unique needs of each scout. Another tip is for the troop advisor to get involved at the district level. 3 months of helping on the district and I learned far more about the eagle advancement process than reading every publication available. Not only does it help the district but it makes the unit level process far more syncronized.