Hal_Crawford

I think the difference is that scouts SELL popcorn. They are not just "soliciting money".

ScoutNut:

The e-mail icon you mentioned allows you to e-mail the contents of that page to someone else, not send an e-mail to that division.

Hal

FireKat:

You might try using this site http://www.bsalicensing.org/ReportUnauth.aspx to report unauthorized use. The site is really designed for reporting unauthorized use of BSA trademarks on items for sale but it might work.

Hope this helps; good luck.

Hal

NJ:

Wow! I completely missed that in the FAQ. I guess I just scanned the headings. That does change the question. I agree with you that the crux is the definition of "emergency care".

I also reread the last part of the passage from the form: "Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory". I now take this to mean that they recommend enforcing the limits for ALL events, even those that do not involve high adventure or are within the 30 minute radius. Am I nuts or is that what they really mean?

And when the uniform is misused the BSA's lawyers are likely to send a cease and desist order to the offending party. Of course with the internet it may be difficult to find and serve the copyright violators.

BSA did go after the vocal group Destiny's Child for appearing for in somewhat altered Boy Scout uniforms. See http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/celebs.htm for an article. Warning, the offending picture is part of the article so if you don't want to see it don't click.

I guess (I am not a lawyer so I don't know) that if the BSA sanctioned the use of scout uniforms for fund raising for other groups then it would weaken their standing to object to this sort of misuse.

I believe the phrase is "Nobody EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition!"

I think the rule explains itself. Scouts can't serve as solicitors of money for other organizations... all other organizations, no matter how worthwhile, not even if it is the the chartering organization. I don't think they have anything against the Salvation Army (at least I hope not-I think that the Salvation Army charters scout units) but they probably picked it because it is an example that everybody would be familiar with.

Yes, I guess we are fortunate at Goshen. The reservation has 3 boy scout camps, 2 cub scout camps and a high adventure base camp. All these are supported by a camp that contains the camp headquarters and health lodge, cabins for some senior staff and visitors, a climbing tower and a COPE course.

Still, it probably takes more than 30 minutes to evacuate a casualty to Lexington (Virginia) General via ambulance. In my experience there (12 years between cubs, scouts and high adventure) our unit has had one scout evacuated to Lexington (cracked rib, evaluated for possible spine injury-back in camp the next day) and a number that have been treated and sometimes stayed overnight in the Health Lodge.

I understand that all the camps at Goshen now have AEDs and hopefully staff that are trained/certified to use them.

My only other experience with scout camps was as a scout in the 60s (Camp Theodore Roosevelt-Calvert county, MD. If I recall we had an Army nurse detailed to the camp for the summer (and Marines ran the rifle range).

Hal

And a Happy Festivus to you as well. Is it time to not decorate the Festivus pole? Time for the traditional "airing of grievances"? Wait, how does that differ from the rest of the year on this forum?

I have re-read the form, especially the passage printed in red on the form, and I don't think I agree with BW's interpretation:

Individuals desiring to participate in any high-adventure activity or events in which emergency evacuation would take longer than 30 minutes by ground transportation will not be permitted to do so if they exceed the weight limit as documented at the bottom of this page. Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory.

(For healthy height/weight guidelines, visit www.cdc.gov.)

The key phrase seems to be "... events in which emergency evacuation would that longer than 30 minutes by ground transportation..." The question is evacuation to what? To medical care (ie an MD in the camp health lodge) or to a full service emergency department? If it is to an ER by ground transportation (ambulance) then many if not most camps would not pass muster.

Of course the loop hole is that enforcement is not mandatory so presumably councils may opt to not enforce the rule at council camps I suspect it may be somewhat driven by whether the Council Executive, the camping committee chair and/or the camp director meet the standards. Hopefully it will be driven by common sense. Is their intermediate health care available (MD on site)? Is helicopter evacuation feasible? How well trained/equipped is the local rescue squad? EMTs with advanced life support equipment and training would be better than minimally trained paramedics or ambulance drivers from a rural volunteer ambulance squad.

At this point there is no reference to the weight limits on the FAQs. Perhaps that is because the meaning is so crystal clear (to some). I hope that BSA and/or the council camps will provide some clarity in the near future.

A poem for the winter solstice and for all of us who treasure our time in the woods:

"Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening"

Whose woods these are I think I know,

His house is in the village though.

He will not see me stopping here,

To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer,

To stop without a farmhouse near,

Between the woods and frozen lake,

The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake,

To ask if there is some mistake.

The only other sound's the sweep,

Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,

But I have promises to keep,

And miles to go before I sleep,

And miles to go before I sleep.

-- Robert Frost

Happy Holidays:

Hal

Filling out the form is a little buggy. When I filled in my name and DOB it filled in the side of the form with the first 2 and half letters of my first name and the first two digits of my DOB. It also put may full name in the blanks at the bottom of the 2nd and 3rd pages that say "Last Name" (no real problem with that).

When I saved it all the check boxes were lost. Its a small thing but it would be nice if it saved my gender and all the other things I checked yes or no.

Great idea but still needs some work. Huge improvement over the old forms.

Thanks for the clarification. I assume it means if you are within thirty minutes of a suitable helicopter landing zone then you are OK. An ambulance is ground transportation. Or do they mean that its thirty minutes on foot from where an ambulance can pick you up? Our council camp (Goshen Scout Reservation) would be OK under either criteria as there is a medically staffed (MD and RN) health lodge adjacent to a large field.

Of course it you are in cardiac arrest you better be within 10 minutes of a defibrillator or your name will be on the obit page in a couple of days. Fortunately many BSA camps now have AED's and hopefully the rest will get on board soon.

I agree with you and some of the other posters that this is good incentive to try and get to a healthier weight. I was pleased last year to see an overweight scout go start a training regimen so that he could more comfortably do a high adventure trek. He wasn't doing it because of a BSA limit but just the realization that he might not be able to keep up at the weight he was. I am fortunate that I am well under the maximum weight for my height but I would like to drop 10 to be in the recommended range.

BW:

Could you share the correct reading of the requirement? I am not sure totally sure which posters you are referring to but if it is the ones who are concerned about being excluded from summer camp because they are over the limit I tend to read it the same way they do. If you can shed some light that will relieve their anxiety then please do so.

Thanks,

Hal

I think it is safe to say that this started silly. Subject line is "Gay Penguins?" Any questions?

So they followed the letter of the law rather than interpreting the intent of the law and perhaps expanding it to cover a circumstance that the lawmakers perhaps did not foresee? There's never an activist judge when you need one!

Hope courts in other states do not follow this example or better yet that state legislatures review and if necessary revise their good samaritan laws to cover this sort of situation.

Eagledad and others have given a long list of reasons that units are not as strong as they used to be. I think that one of the reasons for weak units is that there are too many. The problem is the way that professional scouters are evaluated on quantity more than quality. District Executives are among the most poorly paid professionals in America. I would venture that the Latinos in front of the 7-11 may be better paid. A DE's pay is based somewhat on how many new units they have in their district. It might serve a scout troop well to form a Venture patrol but it serves the DE better to encourage the formation of a new Venturing Crew whether or not there is sufficient leadership to support both.

The DE is also rated and paid for the number of "Quality" units they have. This has led to lowering the bar as to what constitutes a quality unit and even then unit leaders are encouraged to exaggerate their units program or accomplishments to qualify. I know a Cubmaster who was told that he should say that his pack ran a 12 month program even though they did not meet or have activities (other than Webelos camp) during the summer. At the time a unit had to be 12 month to be a quality unit.

In our district I have seen a number of new units that just did not have the membership or adult support to survive.

As I said in a previous post, I have not seen a significant change in the age of scouts since I was a scout 50+ years ago, I don't think age is the issue.

I'm trying to figure out when and how this age shift came to pass. I bridged into Boy Scouts in 1964 at the age of 11. I was in the fifth grade. As my birthday is in December I was among the older kids in my class. When I went to summer camp that summer most of my friends went as well and many of them were still shy of their 11th birthdays. I don't see that the age has changed much in 54 years. Or am I having a senior moment?

Hal

To start with I would suggest that he read the Eagle requirements very carefully. Requirement 6: "Take part in a Scoutmaster conference". It doesn't say "pass" it says "take part in". Scoutmaster may not see it that way but it has been said time and again on this site that there is no pass or fail here.

Requirement 4: "While a Life scout, serve actively for a period of six months" in one or more of the listed positions of responsibility. It doesn't have to be the six months just before he gets Eagle. Did he fulfill this requirement at anytime while he was a Life scout? If so there should be no impediment to his getting Eagle. I have seen considerable debate on this forum as to what constitutes serving actively but the consensus seems to be that the bar is pretty low. Others can argue whether that is right or wrong, good or bad. If he completed this requirement the SM should sign off on it.

That being said: I would recommend that he approach the Scoutmaster conference politely and in a non-confrontational manner. It is a great life lesson to to have to interact cordially with someone you don't particularly get along with. A smart man I know once said that in every meeting you should "assume good will".

If in the end the SM refuses to sign the application then he not following the requirements and the scout will have grounds to take this to other authorities: Committee chair, Chartered Organization Rep, Institution Head and/or District Advancement Chair.

Frankly I don't think it will come to this. I think if the scout knows that the SM does not control the outcome it will take a lot of pressure off and help the SM conference go smoothly.

Mike F:

I'm curious; what did the candidate put for requirement 4 on his Eagle application? I would think that a blank would get the application kicked back at some point. It has always been drilled into me (I was CC for 5 years and about 8 Eagle boards) that the form must be filled out completely and correctly or bad things will happen. All blanks must be filled in and the dates must add up etc.

How did this situation get handled? Did they retroactively assign him a POR? Did they just leave it blank? Did they attach an explanation to national as to why it was blank? Or is it a myth that anyone actually looks at the applications?

Hal

Gay llamas? I know it gets lonely in the Andes but...

A penguin and a llama walk into a bar...

Museum? No, I think that runs against the intent of the requirement.

I generally accept a broad range of answers. If a scout sees a deer I don't expect him to know what kind but I would expect him to say Robin or Cardinal rather than just bird. I do not expect scouts to know if a plant is native or invasive but it should be somewhat in the wild not a potted poesy. I don't know whether some trees are native or were transplanted. Same with animals, no domesticated animals.

In our community it would not be difficult to see a:

Squirrel

Chipmunk

Robin

Cardinal

Rabbit

Fox (once saw a fox carrying a rabbit down the street in front of my house).

Bat

Deer

Mouse

Rat

Black Snake

Copperhead

Our community is considered 100% urban. We are fifteen minutes away from the National Zoo but why would anyone need to go that far to fulfill the requirement and I don't think reading signs on cages is what anyone had in mind. We do extend the definition of "community" to include anyplace that we are camping which expands the range of possibilities for both plants and animals. Spotting a bear track is a memorable experience for a young scout... especially if it is near his tent.

Is an insect an animal? Is a mosquito bite a sign of an animal found in your community?

I agree with the poster who said the requirements are poorly worded.

Hal

This is not the only gay penguin sighting in recent years. Parents ina number of jurisdictions have demanded that the children's book, "And Tango Makes Three" be removed from school libraries because it depicts two "gay" penguins. The story is apparently based on two actual penguins named Roy and Silo that lived in the Central Park Zoo and adopted a baby penguin named Tango.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15764474/

To my knowledge there are no gay penguins currently registered in scouting.

It's an excellent book and an affirmation of why we do what we do. Anyone who questions the value of scouting should read this book.

Packsaddle:

Do I detect a fellow Dawg? I went to grad school in Athens. I did not know Professor Odum.

Hal