Greying Beaver

Gregtlaw's post brought several points under discussion to a head. First, his ex-wife "outted" him. I would have considered the source: not just hearsay but spiteful hearsay. I had my ex-wife accuse me of criminal activity 17 years after the divorce! Fortunately, the police detective realized the situation just as my jaw hit the floor and my eyes bugged out of my head. She will remain a ward of the state for the next 15 years as a result of her actions that she accused me of doing. I know all about spiteful hearsay.

The "we won't ask and please don't tell because we will miss your skills, talents, and time that you have brought to scouting"-policy and excluding avowed homosexuals is one thing. I explained that to a homosexual co-worker when he asked me about homosexuals in scouting when all this brou-ha-ha started several years ago. The finer screen is the first Scout Law. To deny one's known sexual orientation is a violation of trust to all involved if sexual orientation is a question. Scouters are to set the example for the youngsters. It begs the question. He agreed. But my homosexual co-worker asked a fantastic question: "What about open heterosexual behavior at scout functions? You are married and both of you are active in scouting, even if you make no displays of hetersexual affection at scouting events, right? Isn't that displaying open heterosexual behavior? Even if you discuss wives at scouting functions? Isn't that open heterosexual behavior?" Ouch!!! He was spot-on. I told him that the first point of the Scout Oath was "Duty to God and Country". That meant practicing the tenants of my religion and respecting those of others. As a Christian, I answer to a Higher Authority, and the Higher Authority is clear about homosexual behaviorand has created the institution of marrigae for several good reasons. If he had any questions, he needed to consult the writings of the Higher Authority. He said "Touche'. But there is a difference between a homosexual who respects the privacy of others, including boys, and a child molester."

He was correct. We do not put the same restrictions on heterosexuals that we put on homosexuals. Child moslestation is about the power the molester feels he has over his victim. He also went on to point out that he would not be interested in a 12- or 13-year old boy for the same reasons that I would not be interested in a 12- or 13-year old girl. And what would the boy scouts do with a scouter found sexually molesting a boy, scout or not? We all know the answer to that question. Any homosexual being more quickly labeled as a child molester may not be the case, but . . . given preceived misconseptions, the race does not go the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet. BSA has sided with the safe bet. With our sons' development on the line for the eleven years of CS and BS programs, we in scouting have chosen to make the programs as safe as possible for them. My co-worker understood completely and his misconceptions eliminated. He said that he was in favor of the program because of the fun he saw scouts and cubs having and th elessons in life presented

As a quick aside, his comment about AIDS and the homosexual community made a lot of sense, "Man, the party's over. Everybody is pairing up and no more casual encounters. Getting very regual blood tests is all the rage."

I went to his funeral. He wasted away; yep, AIDS. Homosexual or not, he was a great guy.

Nevertheless, policy is policy. I favor it. I continue to adhere to it.

And that's Mr. Rubble to you, as well. Hey, Fred! Ya wanna build a real fire on the ground, heat up a couple cans of Dinty Moore stew them make a bunch of S'mores an' swap stories 'til we get told to shut up and go to sleep? Ah, those were the days.

And yes, SR540 Beaver, I still use that kind of bedroll. It's fun to change the outer blanket from time to time. The "Thomas the Tank Engine" blanket was very popular.

I have to agree with the earlier posting about getting more "credence" at any scout meeting at any level when your uniform has at least some of the "right stuff" on it. It happened to my wife, aka "Cutest BobWhite".

She went through CS and Webelos as an ADL. Five years in and two trainings later, nothing on her shirt to show for it. On to BS. Committee Member with very regular attendance for four years, nothing to show for it. Has been going to RoundTable all this time and she is ignored by guess who(?) - all those who have the "right stuff" on their uniform shirts, training awards, those five CS knots, O.A. flaps and WB beads.

Our son gets elected to the O.A. She had been nominated for O.A. the year before but refused the nomination becasue our son had not been elected. O.K., she gets nominated again and goes through the induction process with our son. The O.A. flap, part of the "right stuff", is on her uniform. Guess what? Suddenly she is beginning to be listened to at RoundTable!

We both begin Wood Badge as members of the same troop but different patrols. As we are finishing our tickets, we go to Philmont for Venture Advisor Training. It isn't long before (golly-gee!) she's got a knot on her shirt. In that interem, we get our beads.

SHAZAM ! ! !

She comments on how she suddenly is being listened to at scout metings of all levels, TC., O. A. chapter meetings, Roundtables, and helping at O.A. induction process weekends. My reply was, "Face it, Sweetheart, you are now M.O.C. (member of the club) in boy scouts."

This is not a rant. It is true that all organizations having uniforms - and some that do not - that have visible recognition programs have those recognitions that are more highly respected and valued than others. The BSA has its recognition programs for both youth and adults. Any scouter who tells you that he/she doesn't give a scouter that he/she has never met a quick once-over to see what's on the uniform is fooling himself. We all do it. Here's the basic checklist:

1.) Wood Badge Beads? yes/no

2.) O.A. lodge flap? yes/no

3.) Leader Training Knot? yes/no

4.) Devices on Training Knot? 1/2/3/4

5.) Arrow of Light Knot? yes/no

6.) If AoL, Eagle Knot? yes/no

7.) Religious Award Knot? yes/no

8.) District Award of Merit? yes/no

9.) anything not seen before? yes/no

I AM NOT DEMEANING ANYONE'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS OR THEIR BEHAVIOR. We do check each other out all the time. It's human nature.

Heck, our son has three knots on his uniform and he's not yet 19, Religious Award, Arrow of Light, and Eagle Scout. Next month he takes Scoutmaster Fundamentals and will get the "Trained" patch for his sleeve, and in time, another knot. And guess who wants to have his WB beads before he turns 21 . . . ? Oh, and don't forget, Philmont Staffer Arrowhead patch that he earned this summer. Betcha he gets O.A. Vigil before the end of '06, too; chapter chief. Yep, he's got the "right stuff" on his uniform shirt.

Tell ya what BSA National needs is the "Parent of an Eagle" knot. A red-white-blue background with a boot superimposed on the red-white-blue background. If you are parent of an Eagle Scout, odds are you had to use that boot at least once in one way or another .

Consider this: When a boy moves on from cub scouts and Webelos to a boy scout troop, he has to take off all of his cub scout recognitions save for the Arrow of Light and start over. Why not have scouters do the same thing, hmmmm? CS and BS are separate programs, you know. (OGE - Duck! - here they come again!)

Better to worry (even too much) and nothing happen than not worry and something happen.

1.) This happened in San Francisco. It figures; nothing new there.

2.) Merlyn_LeRoy's posting - ditto

3.)Want to drive an ACLUer nuts? Ask them if they have any cash on his/her person. They will. Ask them to read all of the wording on the note/coin. Watch what they do with the money. Hoisted by their own petard they will be.

The problem is nowhere near being solved. But all parties are on the same page and everything that can be done in advance has been done. Now it's hold to that course and see what happens.

S'mores for 80 people? Two and a half S'mores per person is 200 S'mores. That figures out to 100 Hershey bars, 4 bags of marshmallows, and 7 boxes of graham crackers, minimum. !

DING!! Back to your corners. I am the aggrieved party. OGE emailed me privately as he said. He let me know what had happened. My response was it would be better in the long run to fix the double posting problem that attached to my postings. I quote myself, "I am not much of a narcissist." My world will not grind to a halt or its wheels come off over an accidently erased posting. Worst things have happened in my life.

I also lauded him for this forum. It is a great way to see how scouters in other parts of the country do things. We are part of a world-wide movement that is constantly . . . moving. It is enlightening, informative, and entertaining.

Carry on, OGE!

Thank you, everyone for the candor in your remarks, regardless where they fell. What we will see is if the program has taken hold in the lives of these boys. Trustworthiness, Loyalty, Obediance, yeah, Bravery, Cleanliness, and Reverence are on the line, as well as Duty to God, Duty to Others, and Duty to Self.

Scouts "B" and "D" are part of this mix as well as their siblings and parents. I'm willing to bet that they keep "A" and "C" on a short leash, too.

It's true that you cannot see the forest when you are in the middle of all those trees.

If others want to post, please do not hesitate to do so. I will be sure to file an "after-action" report.

Madkins007 - I'm like you. A knock-down-drag-out about knots. I had my say, hopped down off the soapbox and headed for cheapseats. That is what this forum is all about. It gives all of us a chance to see how the scouting movement is moving from others' perspectives. Everybody has parts of the scouting program that is dear to them. Taken as a whole, we seem to cover the field. I see that our troop in our part of the swamp does some things the way units in different parts of the country and councils do things; differences, the same thing. I have picked up on several things that I have presented to the proper people for discussion and implementation.

I figured out when I became active in scouting again when my son (finally, yes, at last!) became old enough to become a tiger, that there is an "adult scouting program", complete with its own recognition program (Knots, Beads, and Other Things) and oppportunites to continue serving the youth even when your son ages out. The focus should remain of delivering the program, and a quality program to the boys (I can hear my beads rattling again!).

But this is so much fun . . . and enlightening.

Hi, Scotiacat. Your #1 and #2 suggestions are either in place or will be in place on the campout to be sure. The girls will be in the same tents as their mothers in a different campsite. Campsites are about 10-15 yds. apart, even odds that a trail will connect them. The intervening woods are fairly thick as well. How stealthy these guys - and girls - are is unknown. My concern is during the single-digit hours of the morning. I can just see me parked in front of these guys in my camp chair, with the coffee going as well, all - night - long. The song, "(I Drank) Forty Cups Of Coffee", keeps running through my mind here of late.

And FScouter, these youngsters have known each other since Kindergarten. It's the cards that have been dealt, and we have to play with them.

My wife pronounced me the World Champion WorryWart years ago. I haven't relenquished my crown yet.

Here's the skinny: Scout "A" is dating Scout "B"'s sister, steady for almost a year. Scout "C" is dating Scout "D"'s sister, steady for 6 monthes +/-. Both "A" and "C" are Life closing in on Eagle. "A" just turned 17; the other three are 16, almost 17. All four attend the same school and all four families attend the same church. The church is the CO. I have known "A" and "C" since they joined the troop and have watched them mature. I have met both of the girls. All four youngsters are great kids, active in school and church activities; the girls showed up to help with their boyfriend's Life service projects. I'm sure that you understand the situation.

The Problem: Troop Family Campout in November. In our part of the country shorts have been worn on Christmas Day. All four families are planning on attending this campout. The campout is scheduled for a state park, the troop in one campsite; families, the next one over, just like G2SS says. Saturday is filled with fun-filled high-energy activities from after breakfast until a big campfire that night. It's Friday night that worries me. Our little entourage (anywhere from 60 to 80 total) will arrive at the park after dark. Our troop is used to setting up camp in the dark (couldn't set up camp in sunlight if we had to). Most of the older guys sleep out under the stars on Friday nights, including "A" and "C". The families setting up camp in the dark, well . . . . The scouts helping their families is part of the drill, has been in the past. Confusion will probably reign supreme for upwards of 30 to 45 minutes if the past perfomance at family campouts hold true.

If anybody has not figured out the "worst-case-scenario", please raise your hand.

The parents of these youngsters are aware of the situation. No known hanky-panky in either case. I am sure that the parents have put their children on notice as well. The TC is aware of the situation, but there is little they can do. My concern is if one couple or the other, or both take the Scout Motto (Be Prepared)to that worst-case-scenario extreme. You, in the back, stop giggling!

Short of mummifying these youngsters in duct tape, tying them to trees, or having the moms rotate as chaperones all through the campout, parked in front of the tents where the girls are sleeping all night long, does anybody have any ideas? And - Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? It's a reason for me to be known as . . .

Greying Beaver

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Ok Ok Ok

mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. There was a quad posting so I thought I would clean it up, when I got done, it was clean alright, everything was gone. I PMed Greying Beaver to apologize and asked he repost, it wasnt off color, non scoutlike or anything like that. I humbly grovel

OldGreyEagle (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Our chapter separates elections and call-out. Elections are held in January and February. Call-out is held at District Camporee. It gives the time needed to settle all fits that have been pitched. There is an O.A. Election form. It is pressure sensitive carbon paper. The lodge gets a copy, the chapter gets a copy and the SM gets a copy. The SM can do what he/she wants as far as announcing the names of the elected. Any scouter who pitches a fit is directed to the chapter advisor. That normally puts an end to the fit.

Yes, I have been confronted by adult O.A. members (who should know better) about seeing that Billy's name be changed to show election or added to the elected list. Nope. It's the boys' decision. Then I give them contact infomation for the chapter advisor and elections associate advisor. And get the heck outta Dodge.

Okay . . .let's see . . . I was in the Serpent Patrol (Patrol flag had a drawing of the Lock Ness sea monster on steriods.) At JLIT at Philmont, there was a "Bird Patrol" with a patrol song sung to the tune of "The Saints" ,". . .Oh, Lord, I want to be in that treetop, When the birds go flying in.". My Scoutmaster Fundamentals patrol was "The Castaways". We were made up of a big guy, a little guy, a married couple, a teacher, and a woman named Ginger and another one named Maryanne. You got the idea. Our patrol yell:"Gilligan!" Uniform was the loudest Hawaiian aloha shirt you could find. Our NSP are "The Flaming Arrows". Our troop is pretty meek and mild about partol names. Maybe I oughta do somthing about that, huh?

Oh, yeah, . . . I used to be a Beaver . . .

Hey, SWS, we may bump heads on other topics (but it's fun) but not here. Congratulations on getting your beads! You'll be surprised at how often you use what you have learned.

Why, I remember one time . . . .

G.B.

I heard on the radio news that during the hurricane the NOPD's radio network (main tower?)went down. No communication? No way for the PD to give or receive information. They were having to relay messages using battery-powered short-range radios. And that was before the levies gave way. It was a very spippery slope for the NOPD. All PD's have simialiar communications set-ups and networks

That NOPD officers went over the hill is most unfortunate. They have families, too. If they left to get their families to safe ground and returned that is another thing.

But what really cooked my supper was the report of the President asking the Governor of Louisiana to release national guard units to his (federal) authority. She asked for 24 hours to "think about it". That was Wednesday, two days after the levies broke. It delayed national guard units arriving by 24 hours. The President should have federalized the national guard units on the spot, if not as soon as he got word of the flooding.

FEMA is another story all together. They were not aware of information being shown on television from helicopters with cameras in them! What, they don't watch television news?! Here in "West New Orleans" the evacuees were sent from one office located in one building to another office located in another building not necessarily close by for whatever services. The mayor of "West New Orleans" asked the owners of a recently shut-down mega-store if the owners would lease the store to give FEMA a central location for all their operations. The owners of the property refused, so the mayor commandeered the property on the spot, no compensation to the owners. Good on him!

The bi-lateral congressional committee that is going to investigate the problems might make for some good television.

Minimum age for ASM is 18; 21 for SM.. And it's a good idea to go through Scoutmaster Fundamentals a.s.a.p. It involves a full day of classroom lecture and some practical work, a patrol meeting (You will be assigned to a patrol.), and the Outdoor Experience, a weekend campout emphasizing the Patrol Method. If you comfortable in the outdoors, you will not have any problems. Also, you will see the universality of the scouting movement. If you did things by patrols in Equador, you are that much ahead of the game. Oh, yeah . . . have fun!

BTW, what's your "favorite critter"?

I don't want to fight, either. Like I said, I am now DL for my grandson's tiger den, which means planning weekly meetings, arranging refreshments (and having something stashed in the car trunk . . . just in case the mama who was supposed to bring refreshments didn't, and ANOTHER committee meeting to attend (I am Advancement Chair in our troop.). On the other hand, I now have nine boys who call me "Gran'pa"(Sweet!), eight other parents who HAVE to come to meetings and BE INVOLVED with their son's scouting program (one of the best ideas BSA has ever had), all you cub scouters know the drill.

But I digress. The "adult scouting program" is set up to recognise those parents who get involved in their son's scouting activities at a higher level.

There are, however, some "spoof" knots for scouters. NO, they ain't according to Hoyle, but they can lighten things up a bit. There is an "Order of the Fork" knot for the unit's grand chowhound, the "Scouter Racquenture(sic) Award" knot, a bull in profile with it's tail raised (I actually presented one to a dad who had done everthing and been everywhere). Also "spoof" interpreter strips - "Legalese", "Brooklynese", "Southern Drawl", "Cajun", and "Klingon", etc. Enter "streamwood spoofs" on your search engine. Me? I wear dat "Cajun" on my shirt 'cause I can tawk reel good, cher', I gar-on-tee.

Y'all pass a good time now, my friends,

G.B.

Has no one heard of the "Safety Afloat" training? It's required for canoe trips on lakes and slow-moving watercourses. There is a "Swift Water Training" for canoeing on swift-flowing watercourses as well. And Basic First Aid Training is needed for all outdoor activities. See if your council offeres it on-line.

In our troop, the SPL, ASPL, and TG's all remain in their "home" patrols for all troop activities, including campouts. The TG's help the NSP with cooking from setting up the stove to clean-up, but do not do any of the assignments. The only time I've seen a TG eat with his patrol was when his NSP had a better supper planned than his own patrol! they are also in charge of teaching all of the skills fom T'foot to 1st Class. That being said, please read on.

My son, almost 19 and is now the troop's NSP-specific ASM. He's an Eagle, was a TG, and is going through Scoutmaster Fundamentals next month. According to him, the troop isn't going to have "slacker TG's" any more. TG's have been in name only the past couple of years because the TG's seem to disappear for most troop activities because they are busy with school or falling under the influence of 'fumes. Now get this: He wants his WB beads before he turns 21 (He's going to college here in town - Whew! Less $$$'s!). And he's going to use his position as NSP-specific ASM as his troop position for his ticket work. He was always looking over our shoulders (The Boss is a BobWhite.) while we were doing our ticket work, so he has some idea of what ticket work is all about. This looks like a great way for somebody to get their beads in any troop, especially if the TG program is suffering. Something about two birds and a stone.

I think it's made from a cotton broadcloth, similar to the material used in Dickies khakis. It's double-sided with the arrow embroidered on the top side. I have two. The one that I wear most of the time that now has some ground-in dirt in places and the one I wear to troop elections,annual lodge banquets, etc., the still clean white one.

SWScouter - Seven years to earn five? Not bad. And your dedication to the program is wonderful. Wait until you see the "time in grade" needed for scouter ribbons. Three years per knot is pretty much the norm.

I can understand giving out knots to DL's and CM's. The former requires leading weekly meeting of a room full of high-octane perpetual motion machines. But seeing a scouter with those five ribbons come in from a pack with his son and having no idea of how a troop is run is only part of the picture, and the lessor of the two parts. When they come into the troop, they are the hardest to make the trasition to boy scouting, so ingrained is the cub scout program in them.

The conversation goes something like this (At suppertime on the first campout after he and his son join the troop):

Me: "Hi. Whatcha doing preparing supper for the patrol?"

Him: I'm in the Parakeet Patrol with my son. It's time to start supper for them, right?"

Me: "Your son is in the Parakeet Patrol. You are in the Old Fossils, the patrol made up of the adults. C'mon, cooking meals is their job."

Him: "But they're going to be eating in the dark!"

Me: "And cleaning up in the dark, too. It's a lesson that they will learn. Their troop guide will have them back soon. C'mon."

Seen it happen once every year. I do not begrudge them their knots, not in the least. It's that if parents fresh from the pack are going to be active scouters, they need to go through training for the scouting program. All of them explain that a troop is a boy-led organization.

And guess what, SWC? My grandson is a tiger this year, and guess who the DL is? Ol'Granpa! This cub scouting is a real hoot! More fun than when I was a cub. This is what I get for showing up to the pack meeting a couple of months before granson was old enough to join to scout-out (no pun intended) the pack, . . . beads, O.A. flap, knots, and all. Always wanted an excuse to go to cub scout RoundTable; they have a lot more fun and best of all - food! Scouting is missing out on a great "modus operandi": "If you're not having fun and you don't have food, you're doing it wrong."

Hey, SWC, go to Scoutmaster Fundamentals. You'll learn about troop operations, meet a bunch of people you'll be running into for the next seven years+/-, have a good time, and eat good on the campout. Oh, yeah. . . three years later you get a knot!

Our group was told that the tartan neckerchief was not to be worn after completing the classroom part of the course save for the beading ceremony when the presenter removes it and replaces it with the taupe WB neckerchief.

I roll my taupe neckerchief with the "ears" at the ends turned so that the darker pink color is seen. Several people, both in and out of scouting have made favorable comments about how pretty it is. My tartan neckerchief now occupies a place of honour (top of the pile of other neckerchiefs) in my sock drawer. I get to look at it every morning. Great way to start the day.

RE: three-year rule. I believe that it is part of the information presented in Youth Protection Training. And I thing it is a two-year difference rule. That would make it policy.

Our troop has a "tradition" of arriving very late to campsites on Friday nights. Our guys "throw down" and sleep out under the stars. Only the moms set up tents and the boys help them. It is not uncommon to have three guys sharing a 10'X 8' plastic tarp for a grund sheet. Rain? That's what the second 10'X 8' plastic tarp is for. I sleep out under the stars myself. That 10'X8' palatic tarp has kept me dry on several occassions. If it rains during the day? Hey, "Troop Nap Time!". there is a bit more to it, but it all revolves around using duct tape (duck tape?).