Greg Nelson

Jambo:

Do you have something to add to the topic at hand? If not, please take your insulting, trolling behavior elsewhere.

There are many people in this forum who work very hard to make Cub Scouting a positive experience for the boys. I don''t consider myself a "baby sitter" in any sense of the word. What I am is a hard-working volunteer who makes it possible for elementary-aged boys to have outdoor experiences and learn life skills that simply are not taught in school.

I''m not sure why you hold "den mothers" in such disdain. Some of my pack''s best leaders are mothers working hard to make their sons better young men. I think your contempt of the boy-led concept is also misguided, as well as completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.

As for the "good old days" that you yearn for, I was a Webelos (not "weblow") back in the mid-70s, and the program at that time did a far worse job of preparing Cubs for outdoor activity and Boy Scouts than today''s Webelos program that I''m serving up for my current set of boys does.

That''s how we''ve done it.

I think this topic DOES have a bit to do with the Internet. I''ll go out on a limb and admit that I find it extremely unlikely that this boy has, in fact, earned the 32 belt loops and pins over the course of the past year.

Now, if Mom had to go to the advancement chair in person and put in a claim for this number of awards, she''d have a hard time doing it with a straight face. But, with ScoutTrack, Mom can sit in her living room and file outrageous claims online without having to look anyone in the eye.

This comes up in every Pack from time to time, and there''s no good answer. In my own Pack, we had a den of boys put in claims for the Leave No Trace award. One part of the award calls for boys to make posters and display them at a pack meeting. Well, I never saw any posters from these boys. So, what do you, as advancement chair, do? Is it worth getting into it with the parents or den leaders? The boys have done everything their parents or leaders have asked them to do. Should they be punished for their parents'' reading comprehension problems?

ScoutTrack is a great time saver, but it also makes abuse of the system that much easier for those who view Scouting as a competition. Frankly, this isn''t as bad as the kids who miss many of the den meetings and field trips, but still magically complete all the requirements for the rank badges in the week before the Blue & Gold.

We set our dues for this year at $50/6 months. This covers the total cost of one boy for a year, plus an extra $10 or so to cover any of our boys who don't have money for dues.

Last year they were $60 for the year plus expected participation in the popcorn sale.

I hate hate HATE the popcorn sale. That ---- activity has been the cause of more bad blood and hard feelings than any disputed Pinewood Derby finish could ever generate.

My pack is no different from any other - we have a group of parents who are willing to help out as den leaders, campout organizers, special event coordinators, etc. Then we have a group of parents for whom Scouting is not a priority. Now I understand not everyone will have the same passion for Scouting, but...

During the popcorn sale, the "sideline" families, with a few exceptions, make little or no effort to sell popcorn and fund the pack. So these folks get a free ride in both time and money, on the backs of our pack leaders. That's the simplistic view.

Then there are those parents who are in a position to sell a bunch of product at work, vs. those who aren't. Those who have rich relatives willing to pony up, vs. those who don't. Those who have moms at home in the afternoon to go out selling with them, vs. those who have working moms. Brand-new Tiger parents who get blind-sided in their first month of Scouting by a demand to turn their kids into peddlers, vs. Webelos with a long list of previous customers. And on and on.

In the past, our Pack has run a reward trip (costing about $50/boy) for those selling $500 of popcorn, as well as giving prizes to the top 3 sellers. That's on top of the Trail's End prizes. At least in my time as CM, that's just been another source of hard feelings. The sideline crew sees the boys of the "in crowd" getting all this free stuff, and feels as if their boys are getting shortchanged.

So this year, we're trying something different. We split the dues into two parts - spring and fall. Everyone pays the spring dues. For fall, you can either pay the dues or work them off by selling popcorn. Will it work? Who knows? But at least we won't have anyone riding anyone else's coattails. You can choose to have your boy pitch in towards his cost of Scouting. Or you can just write a check for your son's full cost and be done with it. But Scout "A" won't be funding Scout "B".

Don't even get me started on the ethical issues of having young boys sell highly-overpriced, unwanted items under the guise of "selling Scouting". I went to the Trail's End seminar last year and felt like I was in the movie "Glengarry Glen Ross".

I'm having the same problem. I can't find any way to order custom emblems on the www.scoutstuff.org site.

I want to see what the pricing is for our 2-digit unit number with a veteran bar all wrapped into a single patch. On the site, I can get the standard 0-9 red patches, but that's it. I know they used to do custom stuff (I ordered custom emblems from them a little over a year ago), but I can't find any way to order or price it from their site. Maybe they quit doing it?

The latest copy of the print catalog they sent me (which is also the only verson available online) has no mention of anything other than the stock emblems they sell.

Our pack is cheap, I guess - we just give out the new neckerchief, and expect the family to get the handbooks themselves.

For the 4th graders, since they don't need a new neckerchief, what we've done is give them a coin (BSA Item # 04983, $3.35) with the Scout Oath on one side and the Scout Law on the other. That ties in with their Arrow of Light requirements to have these memorized. We encourage the boys to carrry the coin around and use it to test their recall.

Well, there are bombs, and then there are *bombs*.

Eamonn has a good point when he notes that we provide safe® adventures. Scouting will attract a larger-than-average number of adventure-seekers, and not all the boys pay as much attention to safety as they should.

Rewind almost 30 years - I can remember shooting off a "Polish cannon" with the other guys in my patrol. What is safe? Heck, no! Was it legal? Probably not. Did we get chewed out when finally caught using it? Yes, sir!

The truth is, a fair number of boys like to blow stuff up, as evidenced by the Wolf Cub I had running around at our last campout, yelling, "I want to blow stuff up!" I'm not sure how he got into his head that Cubs blow stuff up, but I digress.

Back to the point at hand, the issue of intent is critical. Did this teen intend to use this bomb for something more than just shooting it off? If the pipe bomb was intended to be blown up down by the lake (or maybe even in the lake), that's still not good, but not as bad as if he intended to rob a bank with it.

If it were me, I'd let the legal system play out, and take my cues from there.

I don't think it's going to ever come back, but it's not the dumbest idea I've heard.

If you had leaders with limited outdoor knowledge and experience, such a program might motivate them to educate themselves. Also, seeing leaders working to improve themselves could motivate kids.

As it stands, though. it's a bit ridiculous, sort of like a 10-year-old playing in a t-ball league.

Oh, boy! The communication you are getting from the mom is setting off warning bells in my head!

I have a boy in my pack with a similar behavior pattern. Anytime he does something wrong, there is always a reason or excuse why he HAD to do X or Y. "He started it, they were bugging me, I couldn't hear you", etc. Or my favorite - "I didn't do it, it was Johnny!" - not effective when I witness things firsthand.

"A Scout is honest" aside, that's to be expected from a young boy. The problem is that his parents always buy into his excuses. They just don't get that there ARE no excuses for bad behavior. I handle that boy by not even bothering to go to the parents anymore with behavior issues. What happens in the pack or den is punished in the pack or den. Not surprisingly, he is better-behaved at the meetings without his parents around. I can still remember the look of shock on his face the first time I refused to let him even offer a rationale for some misdeed. "You mean I can't B.S. my way out of this like I do at home?"

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like the same thing might be going on. As it happens, my "problem child" is also Buddhist - maybe it's the non-confrontational thing preventing assertive parenting. But, unlike me, you're not dealing with grabbing markers or calling kids "stupid", you're talking criminal behavior.

When told her son is brandishing a knife, why does she come back with suggestions to address bullying in the pack? It's possible that bullying led to him pulling the knife, but it doesn't excuse it. And does she really believe her son's story? It's clear that you don't, and I wouldn't either. But I think SHE believes it - otherwise, why would she pass it on to you?

And that last note, that she is "handling it on her end"? Don't count on it. I bet "You shouldn't have done that" will be the start and end of that punishment. I would let her know that she can handle it however she wants at home, but there will be additional handling on the pack level. As a previous poster noted, he needs to have the hammer dropped on him. And based on mom's willingness to come up with reasons to excuse his behavior, it won't be happening at home.

This kid is no longer a little boy. He will be in middle school next year. If he had done this at school, he'd be going to the "special" school - the one located in the juvenile detention center.

Sprocket:

Two things that jumped out at me from a recent post:

"We'll have about 10 boys" and

"Some parents could choose not to take a month"

These are both bad ideas.

With 10 kids, you should split up into two groups of 5 teams. I know a lot of times the leadership just isn't there for 2 dens, but with 10 boys, some of the kids will get lost in the shuffle, and you'll get more parents willing to sit on the sidelines.

I made the mistake when I was a Tiger leader of letting one of my parents off the hook for putting together meetings. As a result, that boy never got the chance to be host, and his dad never got the chance to be a hero to his son.

LisaBob:

Thanks for the response. As for the "MY Range" thing, I agree with you. In a setup like at our camp, with 15 boys shooting at one time, and 200 or more coming through each day. you can't have more than one sheriff.

The problem with the group response idea is that, in any group, there will always be 20% of the boys just sitting there saying nothing. Now, some of them know the answer but are just shy. Others have no idea what the answer is, since they go to la-la land any time someone tries to teach them something.

Since I know the boys in my Pack, I have an excellent sense of which boys have and have not been paying attention. I have a boy who will sit there with his head rocking back and forth, yet have 100% comprehension. I have another who will stare intently and nod, yet 5 minutes later will have no recollection of what was said.

scottteng:

"Until then keep your opinions to yourself or take it up with the range master or shooting sports director."

OK, you tell me how I should handle it.

Now, I don't know how your camps go down, but our rangemaster such as heck doesn't have enough time to sit down individually with 400 boys and have the Cubs explain BB and/or archery safety rules. Yet there it is in the belt loop requirements. And it's pretty clear that the communication should be from the boy to the adult, not from the adult to the boy. Telling rules to the boys is NOT ENOUGH. They have to verbally show comprehension.

So, my day camp rangemaster has bestowed the right to BB belt loops on the boys in my Pack, without any of them ever opening their mouths. Is it really just my "opinion" that the boys have not, in fact, completed the requirements?

You bring up the topic of adding requirements. I am doing no such thing. In fact, I would argue that the rangemaster is taking it upon himself to waive requirements by telling the boys that they have earned the loop.

Here are my choices:

1) Get into it with my rangemaster that he's blowing off one of the 3 requirements for the BB belt loop. I don't know what would come out of this, other than 2 volunteers yelling at each other.

2) Go ahead and give the boys their belt loops, even though I know (since I was there) that the boys did not satisfy all the requirements.

3) Cover the rangemaster's rear by quizzing the boys myself about BB safety, then awarding them their belt loops.

What's your choice?

P.S. Don't even get me started on the sports loops. The boys spent ONE 30-minute session on each sport, including about 15-20 minutes of actual play time. You wouldn't take your Webelos for a walk around the block, then tell them they're completed their 3 mile hike. So why is it OK for the boys to play soccer for 15-20 minutes, then be told that they have

1) Explained the rules of soccer to their leader or adult partner,

2) Spent at least 30 minutes practicing soccer skills, and

3) Played a game of soccer,

when all they really did was #3?

OK, I don't want this to come off like a rant against my district's day camp. The folks organizing this have put together a great set of activities for the boys, and they are having a wonderful time so far.

BUT.....

I have a problem with them awarding belt loops, achievements, and electives like candy.

For example, after our boys finished the BB station, they were told that they had qualified for the BB Shooting belt loop. Well, in my mind, not quite yet. One of the 3 requirements is "Explain the rules for Safe BB gun shooting you have learned to your leader or adult partner". At no point did our boys do this.

That one was easily dealt with by going around to the boys individually at dinner time and having them go through what they learned. Some had them down, some had forgotten almost everything and needed more learning, which is the whole point of that requirement. So I now feel OK giving the boys their loop.

BUT.....

At another station, the boys played a game of flag football. Good fun for all concerned. Before the game, they were told that they would earn the Flag Football belt loop by playing in the game. Huh??? Where is the "Explain or discuss the simple rules of flag football with your den", and, more importantly, "Practice running, passing, and catching skills for at least 30 minutes". I can take care of leading a discussion about flag football rules, but the boys are on their own for the 30 minutes of practice.

Here's the deal - as my Pack's advancement chair, I am unwilling to award belt loops when I KNOW that the requirements haven't been met. In the case of the Flag Football loop, I e-mailed the parents that the boys could receive the loop after practicing football skills for 30 minutes at home and letting me know that they have done so.

SO...

Am I handling this correctly? I'm sure to have a boy or two (as well as his parents) getting worked up about this, since someone in authority told them that they had completed the work for the loop, even though they had not.

Our pack does the neckerchief thing as well. We are giving our current Webelos I boys a "Scout Oath" coin from the Scout Shop, to help them prepare for the Arrow of Light.

You would think a librarian woulb be able to get his/her facts straight.

Penn & Teller: BS! was on Showtime, not HBO.

Newbie Den Leader:

I was there! We came up one marker short of the medals on the orienteering, and have been poring over the map since, figuring out what route would have yielded 1 or 2 more punches.

We got zero interest from the parents, because of the high cost ($90 for a parent/son pair). I went mostly for the reason others have listed - to get to enjoy a Scout outing with my son, instead of being "on duty". I also wanted to scope out one of the council camps.

I enjoyed the large amount of "program" offered at the campout, compared to our pack outings. Still, when you compare it to day camp, with many more hours of activities for less money, and no need for parents to be present, Dad 'n' Lad is a tough sell.

Specifically, I got a lot of objections from my parents about the $45 for the adult. If they priced it like Circle 10 Webelos camp, where the parent pays half of the Scout cost, they might get more takers.

I think Russell E., Travis T., and the others did a great job putting the event together. Travis Taber mentioned that they evenually plan to offer 8 or 10 of these a year, each with a specific theme.

Well, that show was disappointing. Not because it was a hatchet job on the Boy Scouts - I expected that - but because it was so poorly done. As a former debater, I thought they did a terrible job of making their point.

The main point of the show was to attack the BSA positions on athiest and homosexual members. To do so, they mostly relied on ad hominem attacks, instead of rebutting the arguments put forth by BSA defenders on the show. Calling someone a f..... or a...... doesn't really refute what he is saying, does it?

For the most part, the people supporting Penn and Teller's points were pretty weak. The assertion that the BSA is responsible for gay teen suicide rates was particularly incredible. The only person I was at all impressed with was the gay ex-Scoutmaster they used as a prop during their "gay vs. straight" Scouting Skills contest. He quietly and calmly stated his regret that he was no longer able to share his knowledge of Scouting due to National's policies. No grandstanding, no distortions.

The LDS-BSA connection was featured prominently. At one point, they asserted that the BSA was likely to target Jews for exclusion in the future. I'm guessing this was supposed to be humor, although it went over my head. And it's a classic dirty debate trick. Put words in your opponent's mouth, then rebut them.

They sent out fake letters to unit leaders across the country, asking for information on enrolling their athiest son in Scouting. I'm not sure what they proved with that, other than that some units declined the boy, and others welcomed him. Go figure. There was some other pointless stuff, including what appeared to be a topless model in a Girl Scout uniform.

The most interesting quote was one they put in that, to me, showed the opposite of what they intended. Fred Berlin, MD stated that "A man who is homosexual is at no more risk of abusing a boy than a man who is heterosexual at risk of abusing a girl." Read that, then think about it.

Overall, a pretty poor program, and not anything for the BSA to get too worried about.

I've seen more than one poster claim that Scouting is a Christian activity, and it's no secret that many of the posters here are strong Christians. (As are the large majority of Scouts.)

Even without the Christian angle, most of my parents signed their kids up in Cub Scouts for outdoor activities, not religious activities. All attempts to plug religious medals fall on deaf ears, except for those who can get it "for free" as part of the Sunday School curriculum at our local Catholic Church and our local UMC.

And I've had two parents ask me to not renew their sons' Boys' Life subscriptions, specifically because of the Bible Stories cartoon. (One of those two was Jewish.)

I wouldn't characterize Penn and Teller as ultra-liberal. More like ultra-libertarian.

And the point of their series on Showtime, with an unprintable name that starts with "Bull", is to point out things that are not as they seem. They delight in blowing the whistle on charlatans of all stripes.

Some of their previous targets include John Edwards (the guy who talks to the dead on TV), feng shui practioners, PETA, and Gandhi, who held some pretty obnoxious racist views. Hardly a list of topics that ultra-liberals would take on.

They're not just cracking jokes, although they love to use humor to make a point (like when they served people "bottled water" from a garden hose for $5 a shot). Expect some valid points to be raised.

My unit has a membership that is about 25% East Indian. If I tried to run my unit with the religious content many of the posters here think are part and parcel of Scouting, I would have a mutiny on my hands.(This message has been edited by Greg Nelson)

I was hoping they'd go for the angle where all the BSA wants is warm bodies, so they can get more charitable $$$.

Unless you want to really get into this, I'd just go to

http://terraserver-usa.com/

and print off topo maps of a local park for free.

Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.pack320.com/leaderbragvest.html

I found that my boys needed it a couple of inches wider and an inch or two shorter.

And we didn't even sew them - just stapled it together. It's held up for 2 years, and any repairs would be easy.

I enjoyed the issue a few weeks back where "Bible Heroes" shared a page with a panel explaining black holes.

"Bible Heroes" should be axed because it's boring. It's written and drawn in a very dated style.

And I'd love to see some Book of Mormon cartoons in BL. At my Roundtables, held in an LDS building, I get to see paintings of the Jews crossing the Atlantic to come to America and of Jesus appearing in front of Chichen Itza or some similar building before a crowd of Indians. Put some of that in BL and watch the fireworks.

And do we want to go back to the days of 50% attrition from Tigers to Wolves???

The problem then was that the boys weren't "really" Cub Scouts. The parents came, they saw, they had had enough after one year. The current system of full integration of Tigers into the Pack leads to much greater retention.

Introducing a "Cub Scout-lite" program for kindergartners will only have the effect of making new parents think their boys aren't missing much by dropping out of Scouting.