Gold Winger

That sounds like it worked well and would be more memorable than spending the day running from class to class and panicing because you might not finish your work.

We're not talking about what BSA should or shouldn't do.

We have been discussing tj's attempts to dance around the fact that he's broken the promise that he gave when he signed up as an adult. At least that's what I've been doing, he's been trying more misdirection than Kreskin.

" My membership in the organization was not contingent. . ."

Sure it was. I quote from the adult application .. .

"I agree to comply with the Charter, Bylaws and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

You are awoved because you tell everyone here that you are a homosexual. So you are inviolation of the argreement that you signed. Your membership is fradulent. You try to dance around the fact but you, not BSA, is the hypocrite.

I'll avow my heterosexuality any time and anyplace. In fact, I probably have done it around a campfire when the Scouts are talking about hot babes. "Hey, Gold winger! Who do you think is hot?" The answer has been Jessica Alba, Lynda Carter, and Cheryl Ladd but never Harrison Ford or Orlando Bloom.

As for your claim that my kids know more homosexuals than I have, don't know about that. I studied dance and worked in the theater as a young man. I've known quite a few homosexuals.

"Have you signed a membership form that I haven't signed? One that asked you to declare to BSA Inc. whether you were a homosexual or not?"

What does that have to do with the price of tea in Russia?

You are a homosexual and know it. You also know that being a homosexual puts you in violation of BSA's policies but yet you insist of remaining a member. Why? Because you consider yourself to be special. We're not talking about the "thousands" of homosexuals that you claim are involved. We're talking about you.

So do you tell the Scouts to only obey the rules that they agree with? Why not? You only follow the rules that you agree with.

I've noticed that you keep dodging my question by ranting about the number of homosexuals in Scouting.

I've been involved with Scouting for over ten years, not as many as your 28 but more than a few. I can't say that I've ever met a homosexual Scouter. If there were any they were hiding it pretty well with the trappings of heterosexuality like a wife and kids.

Delegate.

In other words don't try to do everything yourself. There should be an advancement person let him worry about badges and cards and loops and record keeping.

Let the chair worry about fund raising.

Let someone worry about activities.

" My point back then was we signed the application individually and we only answer individually to ourselves if BSA accepts it."

I don't understand your point. Whether you have an obligation to report those who don't follow the rules isn't the issue. The quesiton is wheather you need to follow the rules once you agree to follow them.

I know of a couple troops that do their own summer camps. I don't really know if they use the patrol method any more than regular camps. From talking to the adults, they seem to focus on merit badges just like the council camps.

Summer camp strikes me as too much like school. To me the ideal summer camp would be more like Philmont. If you happen to earn a merit badge along the way, that's good but the experience is the important thing.

Go live in the woods for a week. Go hiking. Go fishing. Go canoeing. Learn about trees. Make a basket. Don't judge success or failure by the number of blue cards.

Because it is the policy and when we signed up we agreed to abide by BSA's rules.

I can't stand that show.

tj,

Don't ask, don't tell just means that we aren't going to hunt you down. However, you admit here that you're a homosexual. Unless you are hiding, I'm sure that others know.

You still didn't address my quesitons about tenting arangements and youth protection. The rules set up for heterosexual situations cannot be applied to homosexual situations.

I don't have a troop but since there are no single fathers or mothers involved with my son's troop, if any are homosexuals they are pretty deep in the closet.

I don't care if you are a homosexual. The policy is neither right nor wrong, it is just the policy and we need to abide by it.

However your answer still comes down to "i dont follow the policy because I'm special."

"whether Gold Winger's a recurrent troll?"

Gotta love the internet. Its like dealing with liberals, with them if you don't agree with them you're an idiot. On the internet, if you disagree you're a troll.

If I was Gore I'd be embarassed by the 2000 election. Having to admit that my supporters in Florida were too stupid to know how to vote.

One woman was interviewed after the election and said, "I say my friend coming out of the polls and she said to be careful because the ballot was confusing. So I punched every hole to make sure that my vote would count." The Dems designed and accepted the ballot and the GOP gets blamed for the stupidity of the voters.

BTW, it was Gore who said that he couldn't dance.

True. I find it fun sometimes to just sleep all morning. Other days its fun to get up and watch the sun rise. Fun can be changing your oil. Fun can be watching someone else change your oil.

Usually the people that say "it's about having fun, isn't it?" mean goofing off or parent directed fun.

If a Scout never wants to earn a badge, that's fine with me.

"I'm gay. I've been in Scouting for 28 years,"

Are you still involved? If so what sort of example that you want to set? The rules don't apply to me because I'm special.

My neighbors are homosexuals. Nice guys but they're usually unhappy. Not very "gay" one might say. Good neighbors otherwise.

If homosexuals were allowed to be leaders we'd need new rules. Since a woman must go on an outing with any girls along because men can't be trusted. A heterosexual male would have to go on any outing with a homosexual leader. Two avowed lesbians would not be allowed to take girls on an outing unless there was a heterosexual along. However, two homosexual men would be allowed to take girls on an outing.

What about homosexual youth? Should they be allowed to tent together?We don't allow co-ed tenting.

More opportunity for more rules.

I'm not sure if the Patrol system is really much of a part of Scouting. Elsewhere I've babbled on about the lack of team spirit and I see that with too many troops. The patrols don't view themselves as teams. So I'm a raven, so what?

Too many troops have policies like "rotating Patrol leaders so everyone gets to advance" instead of allowing the boys to chose their leaders and allow them to remain in place. I've talked to Scoutmasters who think that it is proper for them to appoint the SPL and PLs.

If the Patrol method was used at Summer camp, wouldn't entire patrols have to work on the same merit badges? However, that leaves us with the discussion of whether summer camp should be for merit badges.

Hey! Super heros do not work alone. Batman had Robin. There's the Justice League. The Avengers. The Fantasic Four, X-Men.

"so does it really matter if you worse no God versus the wrong one?"

Its been my experience with atheists is that most spend much of their time trying to convince you that you're stupid for believing. They're just as irritating as the Christians that open every conversation with "Have you accepted Christ?"

If safety is a concern, I'd ask how this person would endanger the boys. Casper Milqtoast might be a greater danger because he doesn't understand the rule about no smoking in a tent.

It's your pack and you have to do what you have to do.

I've had more than a few ASMs say, "it's about having fun, isn't it?" If anyone is, the SMs seem to be the ones who are driven advance or die mentallity.

The "gang" thing would be good. Unfortunately, in much of our world that's not the case. It used to be "loyalty to school" but today many athletes view their school team as a secondary pursuit because the "scouts" are looking elsewhere. Also, loyalty to a given team is fading because many play for two, three, or even four distinct teams during the year.

For many "a Scout" has ceased to be "something you are" and has become "something that you do" either for scholarships or because your parents are making you.

I don't know if the peer affiliation isn't possible before puberty. I hung with a pretty tight group of guys in grade school.

I think that the desire to advance should come from within. Reminders are okay. I'm astounded at how few Scouts actually read their handbooks but they don't have to because everything is spoon fed to them. Parents insist on "advancement opportunities" but with a decent program, Scouts will advance if they want to but it may not be fast enough to satisfy parents.

Call me a cynic (Okay, you're a cynic) but I don't think that many youth today want to lead or understand that there is a need to follow direction from the person in charge.

Some come from the fact that parents have taken too much responsibility for their kids' activities. Johnny doesn't have to figure out how to deliver his papers and get to baseball practice because dad will take care of it.

Also all to often there are no consequences in a young persons life. Get the grass cut or you don't go to baseball? Not any more. I'll cut the grass while you're at baseball. Didn't get the project done? I'll stay up till 4 AM building your science project because getting a bad grade is out of the question.

In olden days we'd pick two captains for our pick-up games. Usually they were the older boys or boys with baseball savvy. After they picked their teams, they'd assign positions based on their experience. We might not like playing right field but we went because that's where we were sent. Now no one plays pick-up games, the coach decides where everyone plays and if your father doesn't like where you are playing, he argues witht the coach.

How does this relate to Scouting? I don't like setting up tents, why should I? There's no consequences. You can't possibly say, "if you don't help with the tents, you don't get to sleep in one." That would bring down the wrath of the parents.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I'll ramble on.

A good leader has willing followers. A willing follower understands that things have to get done and does their part. Unfortunately, too many of todays youth have grown up with the idea that if they don't do something someone will bail them out.

How do we solve it? Stop bailing them out. If they don't pitch their tents, let them sleep outside . . . in the rain. If they don't want to cook, let them go hungry.

Kids haven't woken up yet to da consequences they control. "If you're assigned to cook, and you don't cook so that someone else has to, they don't cook food for you and you don't eat."

My goodness! Let a child go hungry? That's horrible. We can't expect children to do things that they don't want to do and it is barbaric to punish them for that. :-p

Wow! Patrols 100 yards apart. I don't know that I've ever been to a campsite where that was possible. I like the idea, I just don't see it happening with six patrols.

As for tents. We used to use personal tents. Unfortunately, tents would get damaged and then parents would complain. So troop tents were bought for the Scouts to use. Generally three boys per tent. Each patrol is responsible for cleaning their tents before they are returned. The adults still may use personal tents.

We also have some nice REI two man tents for backpacking.

My personal observations are that those who don't shower don't get bit by skeeters. Perhaps the stink of stale sebum and rancid armpits masks the attractants.

I did read the article and I didn't see anything about showering. It did say that if your feet stink and emit CO2 then skeeters will like them. A good reason to change your socks.

In any case, I'll continue to only shower every other day at camp because after two days, I can't stand being near myself.

I always judge people by their behavior NOW. Allowing him to go camping with the Pack and interact with regular people may have been good for him and helped him realize that there were benefits to staying out of jail.

If it was my pack I apply the same rules that I apply with anyone. Behave yourself and your welcome to come. I know many adults without records that I don't want along on campouts. For example the fellow who wants to turn every conversation into a political rant. Not a discussion because you're never allowed to express a viewpoint without him yelling "that's horse sh**!" Other than saying hello, few talk to him.

What would this guy have done on a campout? Knifed someone for the last 'Smore? Stolen wallets in the middle of the night?

His presence might have actually been good for all of the boys. "Mr. Brown, Jimmy said that you went to jail." "Yep, I did some really STUPID things and I paid the price. Jail is not a nice place."

Unfortunately, now we'll never know.

I'm not in favor of getting law enforcement involved. Maybe 30 years ago but not today. Once it is brought to the attention of a police officer he'll have to act or he could be in big hot water when something happens.

First what is "reeking"? Some would say that if you have a glass of wine with dinner that you reek from alcohol. For others you'd have to bathed in vodka.

What is odd behvior? A boy in my son's den had a father who was the original stuffed shirt. Stiff. Very stiff. At times he'd make very strange comments that were supposed to be jokes. He was attempting to get inot the spirit but lacked the ablility to delivery comedy.

You could ask to meet with him away from the den meeting. "its been noticed that you seem to have a drink or two on den meeting nights." If he says, "yeah, I always have a martini after work" you could follow up with "I'd feel better if you didn't on meeting nights because . . ." I'll leave you to fill in the dots.

I'm with those who say don't bring this up at the Committtee meeting. What might be a minor situation could get blown out of proportion. "Did you hear about Jim? Staggering drunk at den meetings!"

I know that our society now says "if you have a suspiscion, run to the the authorities and make a fuss." Sadly, that's the way that lives get ruined. Guy has a couple drinks after work and suddenly the police are involved, he loses his job, his children are taken away, and finally he kills himself.

Oh I read your claims about being a cub scout which is even more telling.

Merly said, "No, that's actually a WOSM requirement. Other countries have all their scouting orgs as part of one umbrella organization to satisfy WOSM."

There are alternatives to WOSM. Many countries have a WOSM organization and non-WSOM scouts so your statement is false.