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Everything posted by GernBlansten

  1. So Rooster, in the same vane, should my son and I be offended when at a scout meeting or dinner, the name of Jesus be invoked as a diety to be worshiped?
  2. Ya know, stlscouter, you may be onto something. I'm a diest and as a diest believe god is part of nature and the environment. The OA ceremony reinforced my belief. Probably didn't do much for the Christians, but I was very moved. Didn't put much thought into the polythiest theme of the ceremony. I suppose if I was uptight about seeing other religous views, it might upset me.
  3. It may appear that LDS units suffer from poor leadership more, but the difference is that our units stay units more consistently. A ward will continuously maintain its units even during poor leadership, while most non-LDS units will choke off during that time You make my point better than I can. Because of the rotation of leadership and I assume lack of consistancy of that leadership, LDS troops may suffer because of a lack of experienced/seasoned leaders. Sure there are bad leaders in non-LDS troops and those that don't "fix" the problem, naturally go away. Bad troops will fade, s
  4. Having been tapped out, gone through the Ordeal and ceremony myself, I have not seen anything that would be in conflict with any religion I'm familiar with. However, I'm a pretty easy going guy and don't get wrapped around the axle over much. Oh wait, there is that sacrifice thing I'm not supposed to talk about!!!KIDDING!
  5. Rick, I used the term "conscripted" deliberately to differentiate my impression on the motivation of the individual leader. Someone like me who willfully seeks a leadership role in scouting vs. someone who is assigned the task by the Bishop of his church have different objectives and motivations. One is true volunteerism, the other is not. My motivation is wholeheartedly the advancement of the program and the safety of the Scouts. I beleive in the program and I as an individual chose to support it. Someone who is forced by their church to do the same, may not put the same pr
  6. I had no idea that LDS troop conscripted their leadership. That to me would be the most likely culprit if a problems does indeed exist. In most troops, leadership is voluntary and long term. I just finished my SM training and its taken the better part of a year to get it fit into my schedule. But I did it because I want to enjoy scouting with my son. I've been in the troop for 18 months and just now feel comfortable leading the boys properly and safely. I plan on being active and a leader in the troop until my boy turns 18, in about 6 years. We have leaders with 10 years adult leadership e
  7. Good on ya TJ. I too think the Christian Right have seized the GOP and are pulling the strings now. That's the primary reason I left the party. For years, the GOP was the only party of reason and fiscal self control. You know, during the Reagen/Bush (GHWB) years. Their hard turn to the religous right flung me out the door, skipping down the highway. I was born and raised a Lutheran. All the way through the confirmation ceremony. After high school, I lost my faith and focused on science for my answers. I was that way until my mid 30s, pretty much a practicing athiest. But there w
  8. Not a Biblical scholar here, but let me take a swing at some of these... 1. Drinking alcohol (The Methodist minister who lived across my street said "Lips that touch wine, shall never touch mine") 4. Lending money at interest (I think this goes to borrowing more than lending, Jewish thing I think) 5. Dancing (Southern Baptists don't like dancing. Ask Ashcroft.) 6. Watching television or movies (Really don't know, but I'm sure there is something sinful about it, especially Jerry Springer) 7. Using buttons on clothing (Well, those Quakers are a little queer) 8. Pla
  9. Hunt, your last post was excellent. The problem with using sins to decide who may join and who must be expelled, is that sins are not universally agreed on. Just for the record, I have... eaten pork and shellfish. played the stock market, therefore gamble. drank adult beverages. danced, see above. had sex before marriage, see above. used birth control, see above. worked Saturdays, Sundays and even Christmas. lent money at interest. Watching television or movies Used buttons on clothing Played cards Read Harry Potter books Bought insurance Sweared o
  10. Help me out here. What gay ethics are troubling to you? Specifically, ethics that would normally be displayed or demonstrated in a Scout setting. Ethics specific to homosexuals.
  11. What hetero ethics and role models do you demonstrate to Scouts? I would hope that you don't stand in front a Scout and demonstrate proper hetero techniques or ethics. If you leave the mechanics of sex out of the discussion, what roles or ethics do homosexuals overtly demonstrate to others, that would be any different than heteros? We are all to be asexual when working with Scouts. It isn't appropriate for either hetero or homosexual behaviour to be discussed or demonstrated.
  12. Yes, no matter the evidence, many religous folk will never accept scientific evidence if it contradicts their faith. I'm a scientist by trade, trained in the scientific method. When evidence indicates an alternative answer to my faith, I examine it, verify its validity and make a personal judgement. Evolution is just that. I don't accept the biblical version of creationism, it simply doesn't hold up to my analysis of the evidence. But it doesn't exclude my belief that a higher being had something to do with evolution and the creation of the universe. Same goes for the choice/hard-wir
  13. You're right Ed. I don't know you from Adam. But you did tell us you don't look good in a dress! My comments to you were more general to anyone who dogmatically believes the choice arguement. I just can't believe that anyone who holds that POV has ever discussed it with a gay aquaintance. I'm not saying they hate the sinner, but their hate of the sin clouds their reason. You are absolutely correct that if the hard-wired arguement was proven, BSA would have a very difficult time justifying the discrimination. Perhaps someday, we will be able to scientically demonstrate this, howe
  14. Prove me wrong! Prove gays are hard-wired. Prove it isn't a choice. Ed, when you want to discriminate, you should be the one proving it's a choice not hard-wired. Actually Ed, I was just like you at one point in my life. I thought gays were repulsive, immoral sodomites. They chose to be that way, just like a drug addict or criminal. Then I went to college and met my roommate Todd. He was kind, athletic, smart and as normal as one could hope. We became good friends had good times for years to come. A few years later, we were talking at a party and he told me he was gay.
  15. Thats good to know Bob, but I think they (the Mormons) have a pretty strong voice at national too. They (the Mormons) have a profound influence on our district activities like Camporee. Our Camporees are basically one day events. They start Friday night late and end Saturday at sunset because of deference to the large Mormon population of scouts that cannot participate on Sunday. Don't know how Camporees work in other regions but it seems silly for our district to "offically" end the camporee because some of the troops must leave early.
  16. In my council, over 50% of the units are LDS units. I think they (the Mormons) have a very large voice on setting policy in my area. They (the Mormons) have stated that if the rules excluding homosexuals were laxed, they would pull their boys. Who do you think our council listens too?
  17. I would label Anne Heche as a confused bi-sexual. Ever read her writings? So Ed, With your statement -- "Plus what about those gay people that "turn from the lifestyle" and become straight and visa versa?" Could I get you to change to the "lifestyle"? What kind of program, training, torture, cohersion, payment, or threat would divert you from your straight ways? I doubt any. You are hard-wired straight. I could put a dress on you, but you will still be straight. Doesn't the same go for gays? BTW, Angie Dickenson in Rio Bravo gets my vote on swinging me to hetrosexuality.
  18. The hard-wired arguement is incredibly important. It elevates discrimination of gays to the same level as racial discrimination. Imagine the argument that blacks are bad role models because of the behavior of some members of their race. Therefore, they are not fit for membership in BSA. Those arguements were used 50 years ago, thankfully in 1974, BSA stopped that type of discrimination at the national level.
  19. So Ed, you chose to be straight didn't you?
  20. "If gay parents don't produce/raise children who are gay - that fuels those who say sexual orientation is biological (nature) and not learned behavior (nurture). (GernBlanten postulate?) " I stated that most children of homosexuals are their biological offspring, either from a previous marriage or hetro relationship. Very few are adoptions. So these children share the genetic code of their gay parents. If gaiety (I love that word) is learned, then children from a pro-gay household should have a dramatic increase in homosexual identity. That is not the case. The distribution of gay id
  21. I assume the majority of gay parents are lesbians who either had children out of wedlock or from a previous marriage. Certainly some gay men could also have children from previous hetro relationships, but in most custody cases, women prevail. I also assume adoptions are pretty rare in the homosexual community. If the stats are to be trusted, sounds like a strong argument that homosexuality is nature, not nurture. If growing up in a gay household has no increase in the rate of homosexuality, then can it be claimed it is learned behaviour?
  22. BW, Your application of the membership rules and rights of BSA is spot on. However, your arguement, without modification, could legally justify exclusion of blacks from BSA. If BSA stated blacks where not fit to join, that same membership arguement holds water. Imagine the outcry from society if BSA practiced such bigotry? Just for the sake of arguement, lets say BSA had such a policy. If I as an adult leader, decided to attend a civil rights march or allow a black to marry my daughter, could I be expelled from the club? Sounds like Matt was expelled not for praticing hom
  23. gaiety - The belief in fairies, light loafers or women in comfortable shoes.
  24. Thanks for the clarification madkins. I think BSA called itself a religous organization to justify its policy on discrimination with Gays and Athiests. I think it has backfired and driven a wedge between BSA and a significant portion of America. When I was a scout back in the 70s, never was my faith or sexuality even an issue.
  25. Madkins, Curious, are stating you want BSA to be more religous or less? I think if BSA pushed religion much more than the occasional non-demoninational grace at meals or a simple prayer at meetings, it would become far more fractured than it already is. Our scoutmaster is Catholic. I'm not. If he ran his troop as a youth group for Catholics, I would have to find another troop that aligns with my beliefs. I don't want him to impose his belief system on me or my son, just scout values. I live in a rural part of the country and not many troops to choose from. I think the LDS has already
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