GernBlansten

"It would be a devastating loss of freedom for the nation. If a group cannot select its own leadership, that's a real assault on liberty."

Isn't the local option the epitome of freedom and liberty?

The rights of the minority should never be decided by the majority.

Mob rule trumps!

Wow, and I thought the controversy of the shell fish potluck of 1965 the Lutherans of western Minnesota when through was bad. You Presbyterians sure got us beat.

When the BSA decided to allow women to serve as leaders, the local option kicked in. Some units allow women, some do not. Why would the gays be any different?

The local option would kick in. Some COs would accept gays, some would reject gays.

Ed, I think the general public would find it newsworthy and odd that a BSA unit would practice religious discrimination. Even though we find it standard operating procedure and absolutely appropriate.

The unanswered question is why doesn't their ward charter their own pack like every ward in my district does?

And why is this news anyway? As a non-Mormon, I would be deemed unfit to be a leader in any ward chartered pack or troop and it would be very unlikely the ward bishop would give me that calling.

The author of that piece needs to do a little more background work.

Artificially holding back rank advancement and adventure opportunities to bolster your older scout ratio just seems counter productive to me.

Here's one solution, establish a minimum age for Eagle. Say 17.75 years old. That would keep them active right up to aging out! NOT!

I think that for scouting to be exciting for 11-17 year olds, it needs to become distinct programs. One program cannot satisfy the needs of that broad age spread of boys. The program, as published and taught in training is to program for the middle school boys. If you want to keep older ones engaged, you need an alternate, homespun program for them.

Here's another potential thread spinoff....Ready....

Is scouting a lifelong commitment?

"Yep, in some units they can't seem to get it together and boys in high school move on to other activities. That's not "bad" for the boys, but it shows where there's room to do better Scouting. Gern's son shouldn't feel he has to leave the scouting he was loving because the challenge is no longer there for him as a high schooler."

But why do all of his adventures and challenges have to be through the lens of Scouting? I think we are all a bit full of ourselves to think we have the corner on adventure and challenges.

When I became crew advisor of our crew 3 years ago, I took the advice of many here and did it hands off. I wanted the youth to take charge of it from the start and sold it so. I told them, I was only there to make sure what they wanted to do fell into the guidelines dictated by BSA. If they didn't do it, it would die. Really hands off. By the BSA book.

Here's the result.

They held one meeting, my planning. Very enthusiastic. Gungho. All I asked is when the next meeting was, they said they would let me know. Never happened. I let it go. So about 6 months later, I did the same thing, let them know we needed a meeting and most showed up. Very enthusiastic. Gungho. Not much accomplished but they had a good time. I asked when the next meeting was, they said they'd let me know. Nothing.

So I thought perhaps some incentive was in order. Our troop was organizing a Philmont trek and I decided to put our crew in the lottery for a slot too. Bang, we both got it.

I know, I overstepped my bounds and became a control freak, but at least we had something to focus on. I called a meeting. They showed up and had a great time, several of them signed up for Philmont, most didn't. I asked them when the next meeting was, they said they'd let me know. Didn't happen. They didn't have enough to fill the trek, so I recruited from the troop to make the minimum. We made it. The Philmont crew now took on a life of its own, separate from the venture crew. They met, planned, prepped. Had a great trek. Although it had members of the venture crew on-board, it wasn't my venture crew, it really was just an overflow from the troop.

My point is I purposely avoided being the ex-SM crew advisor who runs it as a troop, and tried to be the laid back enabler. It didn't work. The crew is dormant. It is a paper unit only. I have no interest in resurrecting it and the youth don't seem to want the opportunity I've enabled them to have. Venturing as advertised by the BSA does not work. At least my attempt at it.

Wonderful Barry.

Can your success be done by your typical one hour a week volunteer?

No. Scouting does not build character. But it does offer those with good character to exercise it.

So Beav, where can one find the secret to keeping older boys interested? You say you've seen it. I haven't. You've already said high adventure isn't it and I will agree with you, it ain't the answer. Been there, done that. What key component in the BSA training are MOST BSA leaders missing that would inspire a scout to go from being a 11 year old to an aging out 18 year old?

And why even worry about it? Make your program a great middle school program. Just because we allow membership to 18, doesn't mean we should focus on retaining them to then. I think we get wrapped around the axle when we shouldn't be. As I said before, to most, scouting is not a lifelong commitment. We are not a cult. or are we? Hmmmmm?

Geez, I sure seem to be able to spin off threads don't I?

Put yourself in the boyz shoes for a moment. At 11, what is happening to you? You are starting to get some independence from family, you are starting to come out of your shell and enthusiastically want to try new things, in a safe and organized program. Boy scouting is great for that. It meets middle school boys needs.

Now put yourself in a 16 year olds shoes. What's your prime motivator? You have already claimed independence from your parents (at least you think you have), you want to choose your own friends, plan your own activities, your own path. You want to be cool.

You definitely don't want to hang out with little kids. Continuing year after year of the same thing is not on your agenda. The program you loved as a kid, now is a burden because of adult expectations.

Fumes and perfumes? They are just symptoms of the boy coming of age and his priorities changing.

Venturing? Been there, done that. Even bought and drank the Koolaid. I have yet to see a thriving venture crew that follows the published BSA Venture program. The "successful" venture crews I've interacted with had one thing in common, an outdoorsy female sibling of a Boy Scout and a very active father running it.

I get the impression that you might think our program failed my son. I disagree. I think it delivered. From the time he was a cub through 15, for 7 years, he loved it. The activities were age appropriate, offered him challenges and adventure and hanging out with his buddies. But his interests changed, his friendships changed, HS offered a ton of new challenges and opportunities. He is exploring them and scouting isn't part of it.

Just because membership rules allow him to be a scout up until 18 doesn't mean he wants to do it till then, or should be expected to. Especially with our unreasonable expectations of commitment.

As I watched my son navigate through his scouting, it became apparent to me that boy scouting is a really good middle school program and a lousy HS program.

Beavah,

I think band was just something new for him, a new challenge that he's gotten good at. Scouting for him was the thing for him during middle school. He put 100% into it, Philmont, SeaBase, NTeirs, OA, NYLT, staffed NYLT, Okpik, Eagle. After he mastered it, he looked for a new challenge and band was it. I expect him to let band drift away and something new become his passion after he graduates from HS. I don't think it was that scouting didn't meet his needs, it provided well. I just think its silly to expect they continue when the world offer so many other opportunities. Scouting for most is not a life long commitment.

For my son, it was 24/7 scouting through middle school. Made every campout and meeting. Over 100 nights camping. Earned his Eagle by the beginning of his freshman year. Started marching in his freshman year and it immediately impacted his scouting activities, especially in the fall. Now in his senior year, he's in jazz band before school, wind ensemble for a school class, marching band practice every evening (through fall), and competitions/FB games every weekend through the fall. Zero time for scouting. He's said he wants to continue band into college even though he's looking at becoming an engineer. Hasn't camped once this year or attended one scout meeting. Priorities change.

Most quality 4 season tents are built not primarily for snow loading, but for wind loading. They are designed for mountaineering situations where wind speeds of over 100mph can be expected. They also incorporate snow ports (dog doors) which allow you to exit the lee side of the tent no matter the wind direction. In mountain settings snow loading will not be a factor. Its always windy(especially above tree line), and snow will not collect on the top, but rather drift around the tent.

A typical 3/4 season convertible tent will not have the dog doors. Nor the wind loading capabilities of a true 4 season tent.

Needless to say, most scout units have no need for a true four season tent.

Interesting idea on the sheet over the bag to collect the frost. I think it would just be a damp towel by morning getting my bag wet. In my Kiva, you gotta be real careful dressing in the morning not to touch walls of the tent or risk getting a very brisk morning ice shower. We then just invert the tent during the day to dry it off or shake the frost off and stuff it for the next night. We rarely camp in the same spot two nights in a row either.

I have a convertible 3/4 season Big Agnes tent. It's convertible because you can zip open various panels to manage ventilation (inner tent, not fly). Drum tight, or drafty. Kinda heavy at 8 lbs and barely two adults.

The key to reducing frost is ventilation. The problem with ventilation is heat loss. So choose your poison. With the convertible, I'll generally start out fully ventilated, then as I get colder, close it up in stages usually fully shut by 5 am. No matter the outside temp, I can keep it around 40 degrees inside with another adult.

I also have a Mountain Hardware Kiva. Its a floorless single pole teepee tarp tent. Once the ground is frozen or there's a good layer of snow, its my tent of choice. Not great for muddy or buggy areas. Just seal it up, let it condensate, stay warm. Can put 4 adults in it and it weighs less than 4lbs. Sheds snow great too.

Wow trev,

I never realized that was in latin. How did they find so many performers who knew latin to sing that?

Big Agnes. Google her. She'll take care of you. 3" of total comfort.

Personally proven on 2 NTiers treks, 1 Philmont trek, multiple Okpik courses, multiple Colorado 14nr climbs. 200+ nights camping on the ground. She just plain works.

Oh, and one of those NTiers treks, I was recovering from rotator cuff surgery. She comforted me.

NJ,

Perhaps an atheist takes the statement in the oath, "To do my duty to God and my country" and focus on the previous statement to that, "On my honor, I will do my BEST"

I can see how you can honestly do your best to your duty to god and country and still be an atheist. It's YOUR best.

Just the statements further down in the oath, "To keep myself physically strong", looking at the plus sized scouters at roundtable, I just have to assume they are doing THEIR best.

"Your willingness to sacrifice underwhelms me. "

Your unwillingness to see the big picture disappoints me.