ETD129-AW Chpt Adv

WOW, I would never have guessed this would still be rolling along two years after I posted it. I hope it's been good, Maybe the forum works. I hope everyone can see each other's personal dilemmas'. This is typical of the may "grey areas" created by the BSA. As the OA handbook says. "Non-members should not attend..." We have an obligation to be able to articulate the BSA & OA position to parents that inquire about this. I still stand behind my comments early on in the thread:

Thanks again for all the input and opinions!

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Thanks for everyone's input. I am familiar with the rules set forth in the GSS as well as Youth Protection. Now two days later, here is my take and position.

As a parent I can appreciate the BSA's position that NO part of scouting is secret and off limits to anyone especially parents, nor should it be. In today's world we are under the liberal microscope and the last thing we need to do is add fuel to the comparisons that have already been made between the OA the Free & Accepted Masons and Skull and Bones. If this was an all adult order that would be one thing, but it's not, it's for our sons and parents have a need to know. Period.

Now on the flip side; As I said, I've been in the OA since 1972. NO ONE appreciates the mystery and the anxious anticipation it creates in the eyes of a 13 or 14 year old scout going through his Ordeal as I do. This mystery aspect should be preserved at all cost, for the sake of the youth. Our youth (and adults) should understand and appreciate this and not reveal the details of their ordeal. So what if an adult knows, as long as the details are preserved, an adult should be able to put this into perspective, and not be traumatized by knowing the details.

...

Most all of the responses outlines the best way to handle these situations:

- We DO NOT need to advertise or even mention that parents are allowed. Stay away from it.

- If a parent expresses interest he should be referred to the LA or CA

- Explain the mystery and the importance of this for their sons

- Explain the ordeal and ceremonies and our purpose.

- Allow access to the script if need be.

- If all this fails we have to allow them in.

- If they show up unannounced, explain they must observe from a distance and must not interfere or interrupt.

- Let the youth handle this. (They can do it so darned much better than we can!!) Really...no sarcasm here.

- So what if still pictures are taken, I would have loved to had some of my ceremony. What does it show?; a bunch of Boy Scouts in uniform around a camp fire with 4-6 other Scouts dressed up as Indians. That's all

- Video of the ceremony by non members. I would not allow this if at all possible. If members video the ceremony, that's one thing, make sure your ceremony team gets a copy .

Enough rambling from me.

Yours In the Brotherhood

I totally agree with John. The DC is really new to his position, ie. after the district elections and nominations took place. He was relatively unknown among most of the district when he was nominated. I and probably others were unaware he was not in the order, until the ordeals. Not sure we would have had time to correct this. I'm also unsure as to him having met the requirements, we should all really hope he does, but...

Again thanks

Thanks for everyone's input. I am familiar with the rules set forth in the GSS as well as Youth Protection. Now two days later, here is my take and position.

As a parent I can appreciate the BSA's position that NO part of scouting is secret and off limits to anyone especially parents, nor should it be. In today's world we are under the liberal microscope and the last thing we need to do is add fuel to the comparisons that have already been made between the OA the Free & Accepted Masons and Skull and Bones. If this was an all adult order that would be one thing, but it's not, it's for our sons and parents have a need to know. Period.

Now on the flip side; As I said, I've been in the OA since 1972. NO ONE appreciates the mystery and the anxious anticipation it creates in the eyes of a 13 or 14 year old scout going through his Ordeal as I do. This mystery aspect should be preserved at all cost, for the sake of the youth. Our youth (and adults) should understand and appreciate this and not reveal the details of their ordeal. So what if an adult knows, as long as the details are preserved, an adult should be able to put this into perspective, and not be traumatized by knowing the details.

In our lodge, in have 3 or 4 chapter ceremony teams performing ceremonies at the same time. Our DC arrived and was directed by the LA to our chapters ceremony site. As he approached he was met by an adult brother and told he shouldn't be there. The adult happened to be the immediate past DC. He was also told the same thing by a member of his own troop (which compounded things). I understand there were some words exchanged. Yes as was mentioned I'm sure he knew the rules. Yeah, he raised holy &*%% with the LA, LSA & most likely to the Supreme Chief of the Fire. Was he pushing his weight around; was there a personality conflict; was there attitude (from either party)? I don't know the answer to those question. Before a new thread is spun, I know; the adult should not have been the one initially involved, this should have been a ceremony team and youth issue to handle.

Most all of the responses outlines the best way to handle these situations:

- We DO NOT need to advertise or even mention that parents are allowed. Stay away from it.

- If a parent expresses interest he should be referred to the LA or CA

- Explain the mystery and the importance of this for their sons

- Explain the ordeal and ceremonies and our purpose.

- Allow access to the script if need be.

- If all this fails we have to allow them in.

- If they show up unannounced, explain they must observe from a distance and must not interfere or interrupt.

- Let the youth handle this. (They can do it so darned much better than we can!!) Really...no sarcasm here.

- So what if still pictures are taken, I would have loved to had some of my ceremony. What does it show?; a bunch of Boy Scouts in uniform around a camp fire with 4-6 other Scouts dressed up as Indians. That's all

- Video of the ceremony by non members. I would not allow this if at all possible. If members video the ceremony, that's one thing, make sure your ceremony team gets a copy .

Enough rambling from me.

Yours In the Brotherhood

Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on parents attending their son's Ordeal ceremony?

We recently had an UGLY experience in which a non-member parent (the district commissioner none-the-less) was turned away from his sons Ordeal ceremony.

As a parent and long time brother (Vigil) I have very strong opinions. I have the 1972 member opinion and then again the 2009 parent opinion, that really conflict. I need to come up with a way to marry the two, that protects the traditions I love and embrace so much and at the same time, respects a parents right to know what their sons are getting involved in.

I have one and have had it for years. When I wear my long sleeve shirt it or my Woodbadge neckerchief will be worn. Not an issue for the "Uniform Police", it was sold and approved as an official part of the uniform and shall always be such. I wish it was still offered.

ScoutMomSD says:

Gold - "sez" me.

Okay here goes my non PC side again. I think its kind of creepy to have men whose kids have long left who spend their spare time "hanging around" scouts. In fact that kind of creeped me out at the Roundtable I went to also.

There have been so many "issues" and I believe a whole patch (bobcat) about that subject that I would never be in favor of folks who dont have kids in the pack/troop involved.

My mom used to say, "avoid the appearance of evil".

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I started this thread with a simple question about a tax ID number. It was not my intention for this to spin into the thread it has. But "substring" saw fit to spin it that way. And OMG ScoutMomSD wades in with the most idiotic and insulting remark know to scouting. I can't resist. I don't even know how to respond to this one.

Eagle92 brought up a good point about church youth directors being involved with youth when they have no kids of their own. Not to be taken the wrong way, I don't know the statistics, but I would dare say BSA has a better rate on this subject than the clergy.

And how dare you even be involved in a program in the first place that was founded by, and fostered to where we are today by great men who had not sons in the program. If you have no more trust and support in the program than that then you're in the wrong place.

The most successful troop I know had continuity of leadership in a scoutmaster that's been there since 1964 (yep 44 years). He has faith in the program and believes in the ideals we stand for and the troop he's built shows it and lives it. I challange you show me a unit with all NEW leaders and no veteran experience that can claim the same.

You have your opinion and know you know mine.

You need to cut your losses with this "organizational terrorist".

As Scoutmaster, I have had the very un-pleasant task of having to ask two separate Assistant Scoutmasters to leave and not return. There is nothing to sue about, BUT, you must involve the COR and IH in the process and get their bye-in and support.

I realize that this person may have their sons involved, as was the case of my ASM's. But as unit leader I had to look at what was in the best interest of the troop as a whole. I can assure there would have been more damage and loss of more families and morale had we allowed these leaders to stick around. I really struggled with one decision, as I really wanted one of these leaders sons in the troop and the troop could have used them, but keeping the leader around again would have done more damage in the long run.

Our leaders and committee met, with the COR, laid all the evidence on the table and ultimately said we needed them gone. A letter was drafted, stating the facts of the decision and the fact that BSA is a private organization with the right of selective membership and their behavior was not inkeeping with the high ideals of BSA. This letter was mailed by certified mail with ALL signatures in place including the COR. The only reply we had from either was a nice note asking for their sons records. We even went to the point of pro-rating and refunding any fees and funds they had paid, and sending any earned advancements. This was dealt with firmly, straight forward and professionally.

Again it's and unit decision and was beyond the DE or DC, although they were cc on everything and kept in the loop

Know what you need to do, and have the confidence in your decision.

Sounds like you should have more that enough evidence for this to take place.

Eamonn, Brother, I couldn't agree with you more.

Absolutely nothing wrong with admitting it. What do our guys learn if we adults are ALWAYS stepping in and solving their problems OUR WAY?

The 2nd summer camp I went too as a Scoutmaster of the ripe old age of 36, I ran into my old Scoutmaster from 20 year prior. I ask for a little piece of advice on how to resolve conflicts and how to deal with a bully. He put his arms around my shoulder as we walked and said "sometime you just have to have a talk with the SPL, and tell him you're going to be taking a long walk in the woods away from camp and that if any problems arise he's going to have to deal with it, but you don't want any blood-shed, or not much anyway." I've used that, and it has worked more times than it has failed, and I don't ask questions, it was THEIR problem and THEY solved it. We have got to allow our guys to solve their problems, they'll be adults soon and won't have us or their parents around.

Ooh, and you are more that right about parents/adults causing more problems.

I heard this line from another old time scouter, in dealing with overly protective, smothering parents. "I've been doing this for 20+ years, and haven't lost a scout yet, have brought some home with scrapes and bruises, and have made a few trips to the hospital, but haven't lost one. If you're allow me and get out of my way, I'll do what I can to turn him into a fine responsible young man, OR if you prefer you can leave him attached to your nipple for the rest of your life."

Most will consider this extreme, you do have to step in and seperate a fight. And no, it is most certainly not a hanging offense. Listen, listen and then allow the guys to discover a solution, and that means more listening. They usually can find and agreed solution and then be friends afterwards. Seperating them and solving it YOUR way, leaves open unresolved ends in their minds. It's got to be something they resolve.

The committee and parents are obvioulsy needed in resolving major problems such as theft, assault or intential property damage. Boys will be boys and this does mean the occasionally fight, shoving and pushing and cursing and teasing (not to be confused with harassment.) Most of these do not warrant having a major case of it.

As you may can tell, I am not a fan of the "kinder, gentler scouting"

I've had this question put to me. What do units do when they are ask for a tax Id number, such as when opening a checking or savings account? I know BSA or Councils don't have a number for individual units to use. What have some other units done?

Options I have heard are:

1. Use the charger organizations (CO) ID number. (Problem, the CO is a business & not a non-profit such as a church)OR is this still an option?

2. Apply for your own ID in the units name.

3. Use a leaders SSN to open accounts. (Which I have done in the past, but not really excited about it.)

Any help would be appreciated.

Eamonn says:

The first Troop OJ joined had a change of leadership.

The Guy who replaced the SM held the opinion that every Scout in the Troop should be an Eagle Scout.

The idea that Advancement was a method of Scouting was cast aside and replaced with the idea that Advancement was Scouting...

I have to say Amen:

Being the Scoutmaster of a small, young troop, I was struggling with trying to get the troop (adults/parents) to accept the concept of "youth run". As part of the troop meeting program the boys insisted on working on Merit Badges (albeit with influence of a parent/committee chair who was quick to brag about his 3 palms). I have always been against the principle of group Merit Badge "instruction". However with some guidelines in place I compromised and agreed to allow them to set aside about 15 minutes to work on Merit Badges.

The PLC selected the MB and off we were. Well seems that 13 year old Billy already had Fingerprinting or had absolutely no interest in it earning it. For 15 minutes he did all he could to disrupt the meeting and cause continuous trouble, making the SPL's life a living @#$$. The boys complained to me about him, and some of the adults wanted me to castrate him. I could not hold Billy totally responsible for his actions, and we did the best we could. However I was able to somewhat prove my point about the concept that MB's and troop meetings do not easily mix.

Before I'm jumped on about not providing a mixture of things to do for different ages or groups, I did say "small troop". I know the program and have read the books.

I am no longer with this troop and have accepted the position of Committee Chair/Mentor of a new up-start troop in a nearby town. The group is again small and fresh out of Cubs, and the leaders are totally focused on earning Merit Badges at all cost. I understand they are still in the Arrow Point, Belt loop, Activity pin, sports pin mode. Education is the key here. This relationship is much better than my previous life and the leaders are able to listen and understand, again it's the Scoutmaster's and PLC's program and all I can do is offer friendly advice and experience over a cup of coffee.

The point of this rambling is that as someone said; Advancement is only one of eight methods of scouting and we're charged with delivering the program by utilizing all eight. Removing any one of these and you don't have scouting as it was designed. Remove the other seven, as I see is so often done, then you have a failure of huge proportions. Advancement (rank and MB) is only one of eight pieces to the puzzle, and these pieces need to be the same size!!

WHAT KIND OF PATCH OR BADGE CAN I GET FOR BEING PART OF THIS FORUM?

Wow!! Do people get up tight over the simplest things or what.

TRANSITIONAL (weather the word exists or not), I will be wearing my old style shirt with red loops, and red numbers until I need to go buy a new one, then I will buy the new style shirt with the green loops and green numbers. The rest of my troop shall do the same.

MIX & MATCH (weather the words exists or not), I will need a new shirt before I need a new pair of pants (my pants are the old style from around 2001). I will then buy the new Centennial Shirt (with the new insignia) to wear with my old style pants.

As troop committee chairman our job is to interpret BSA policy for the troop and that I have done.

Once an official uniform, always an official uniform.

All this legal! No tickets or warrants for my arrest from the uniform police.

I hardly expect the new uniform guidelines to state that every scout and leader MUST go out and buy the new complete uniform (as pictured) by a deadline date or they must turn in their registration.

My 3 cents...fire away, I'm standing still.