eaglescout1996

I now live in a council that takes up a Metro area all the way out to the suburbs and even to rural farmland. We have 19 districts (13 counties) and they all vary in size. From a county that has 7 districts themselves to a few districts that make up multiple counties. The district I am in now is about half a county with around 60 traditional units.

I moved from UCEagle72's council about 3 years ago, right before the SE consolidated Districts/Chapters. I still don't understand why they changed names of the Districts and Chapters, the one I served in had the same name even after they were split 15-20 years ago and had had those same names when my father was a scout and scouter from at least the early 60's.

I have been debating for three days whether to post this or not since it seems like we beat the horse on this one. I was at a Lodge Ordeal this past weekend and the situation which arose solidified my opinion that non-members should be discouraged in attending the event (if they completely insist due to a safety concern, then parents only).

I served most of the weekend with a large clan from a single Chapter. There were a couple youth Elangomats and one adult, and I was more of a project foreman, ensuring the projects were completed as they were laid out. There was one older youth cadidate that I would "catch" sitting behind trees or behind a building when the rest of the candidates were working. Toward the end of the day I was counting up candidates to make sure no one was missing and I was short one....I found the young man off in the woods talking to his parents on a cell phone, telling them what he had been doing all weekend and where the ceremony site was (Pre-O). I simply asked him to rejoin his fellow candidates.

Later on in the evening, I was at a ceremony helping with a few things and in trods two parents and their (approx.) 8 year old daughter. They completely interupted the ceremony which was going on and when they realized it wasn't their son's, they demanded to know where it was because "they didn't drive 2.5 hours to miss taking pictures."

I put two and two together and knew who they belonged to and was able to take them to the other site. As we moved together to the other site I mentioned that the ceromony was important to everyone and that we ask for the up most respect and decorum while attending. Well, when we got there, they disrupted that ceremony as well, calling out there son's name, waving (he was waving back)...all like it was a little league game. The team fumbled a few lines as they were distracted and it was an all around bad experience for everyone.

After the ceremony, the family (including the new Arrowman) disapeared. The didn't stay for any Chapter or Lodge fellowship and wasn't there for the Lodge Officer's welcome and new member introduction. The Ordeal ceremony was ruined for about 40-50 new Arrowmen and we will probably never see the offending Arrowman or his family ever again.

I am not advocating for seceret ceremonies, but as an Arrowman who was elected as a youth, the Ordeal is something special to me. I paid attention to everything that was going on and really took it to heart. A little over 20 years ago, the lodge who inducted me was still using the arrows around the neck, and if there had been cell phones back then and I had been on it during the day, I am certain my arrow would have been broken and I would have been sent home.

This topic came up Sunday morning at breakfast, since the situation was widely known at that point. The opinions mainly broke down in two ways....the adults who had been elected as youth thought we should keep some mystery to the ceremony and thought non-members should no attend exept for safety concerns, the adults who had been selected as adults saw no big deal I thought anyone who wanted to see their boy in the ceremony (as a side not, every adult who went through had a son in a troop at the time).

I know what the G2SS says, but wanting to view the ceremony because you think it's a Court of Honor goes against why we allow parents to view it in the first place. I lost my vote close to 15 years ago...with everything else, if it's not a safety issue, why don't we let the youth Lodge leadership decide?

I know our district did not meet its popcorn goal last year and my wife was a little upset since she only recieved about 15-20% participation from the Packs and Troop in the District. The district missed its goal by about 10%, but last years goal was about 15% more than the previous year. I told her that wasn't too bad, especially with the amount of participation and the ecomony.

This year's goals are lower and I believe are less than what the district raised last year. She did say that the Council seemed more concerned in tripling the number of units who sell popcorn than the actually "goal"....but she knows that if she gets more units, $ goes up as well.

She doesn't get bombarded from the district/council, as they seem happy she's willing to help out.

This might be reaction from the Fall 2010 Commissioner Newsletter. There was a Q&A section toward the end which talked about awards, the question being "How do I apply for the Distinguished Commissioner Award?"

It goes on to say you can't apply and that the Council Commissioner has to agree on the award. I know a council I used to be a commissioner for had a form and each commissioner just kept track of their progress, turned it in, and was awarded the plaque and knot.

The Council I serve as a commissioner right now has a very large commissioner corps, but there are way more SB awards among them than DCAs, and they don't seem to be given out that often. This might be a way to hand out another award while "elevating" an existing one to a higher stature.

I see the motivation as one of two things....perpetuating the "knot" culture or the NC making up another award to attract more UCs and get the national ratio down to 1:3.

My wife is on her second year as our District Popcorn Chairman.

She does everything that Oak Tree has said, except for the last half, I guess she's lucked out that the Council has taken care of the delivery, storage, and distribution. She basically has to call, then follow up, then follow up again to make sure Packs and Troops are there on distribution day to pick up there stuff. I then I get to spend my Saturday at a warehouse helping hand out popcorn instead of being out at camp.

For her is a lot of coordination, contact, and data gathering.

'92, I'm in a Section over, down in GA.

It can work, and the Chapter I speak of, does do fundraising and lots of fellowship. My problem is that I'm in a urban/suburban low-income district with low scout participation in the first place. None of the Scoutreach units can elect anyone because they do not camp enough....most of the little participation I do get, comes from two troops...one troop has tons of ordeal members, but after that weekend, we never see them again.

Some boys just don't like the Native American events, but we have athletic events, leadership opprotunities, and service to go along with singing, druming, dancing, and ceremonies.

(actually two Sections over, I thought Croatan was in Dixie)(This message has been edited by eaglescout1996)

Great example....

We had a mother of an 11 yo Scout argue with the SM because of the nights camping requirement. He was a cross over at 10.5, went through the "first year camper" program at an out of council camp, and became a 1st Class Scout by Christmas. When elections came about he wasn't put on the ballot by the SM, who said he didn't have the night camping. The mother through a huge fit because "they" went camping last month to get his last two nights. SM said it wasn't Boy Scout camping.

More and more do I see this happening.

We have one chapter that has a pre-ordeal meeting with the parents and youth, during which they lay out what the OA is and what we do. They mention that we have an obligation (of course they don't say what it is), and tell them if they can not commit to the values of the OA, don't bother coming out to the ordeal, although it is still your decision.

That chapter has one of the highest rates of participation in our lodge...the youth leadership and advisors have high standards....so they're doing something right.

IMO, we need to go back to the pre-1990's elections...in almost every single election I go out with a team, 90% or more of the eligible young men are elected. It seems more of a box to check off for he and his parents, than an honor. Our lodge puts through between 400-500 Ordeal candidates a year, and our biggest hurdles with QL every year are positive growth and Brotherhood conversion. We have great programs, although they can always been improved. Last Scout Show, Lodge Trading Post, Lodge display, two Tipis, dancers, Q&A on regalia....but I really believe the problem, nationwide, is two-fold.

1. Selection is too broad and we don't get the best honor campers.

2. Parents and youth, treat honors as things that must be collected or checked off, once they get one thing, they move on to the next.

Most kids just want the bling, to wear the flap to show they're in the OA. You can call me mean, but maybe we need the OA-UP out there to tell folks if they're not dues paying members of the lodge, they need to take off the flap...go get yourself the universal ribbon to show you were inducted into the OA....but you're not a member of the lodge if you don't pay your dues or participate.

This same conversation was had by a bunch of adults this weekend at Conclave. What would E. Urner Goodman say if he saw what the OA has become? The thought of Cheerful Service has left the minds of many.

I now serve in a large lodge, depending on what time of the year it is, we have betwen 1300 and 1800 dues paid Arrowmen. We also have between 10-12 events a year (counting Section Conclave), but we only get about 10% participation in every event. Some of it is conflicts of schedule (including SMs and Distict Committees who don't support the lodge) and some of it program. But, program lies with the youth. As an adult advisor, I can do only so much to support the youth, they have to make it work.

I do agree with those on the board...the OA has become lax in elections. I was elected as a youth under the "no more than 50% of eligible youth" could be elected, my father was elected in the early 60's as a youth, which I've heard was even more strict.

I will say this...I have had conversations with youth who have said that they thought the OA was supposed to be the "society of honor campers", and ask why are there so much dead weight among the youth. All I can say is that their troop thought they were worthy of the honor.

Our current DD will be camp direct at one of our summer camps, he leaves in May and won't be back to late July, early August. Last summer he was the program director at out other summer camp, but he was in transistion from being our DE to another District's DE at the time.

I'm in a very large council, in a large district, which is lower income (+70% free or reduced lunch in the public schools), so we have a DD and a DE specifically assigned to our district, luckily we don't have to share the DD. But, we're always short one or the other. In the last 3 years or so, we've gone through 6 pros...only one has quit (Our last DD who had about 5 years experience, had a baby and decided to stay home), everyone else has been promoted. Last year we had a new DE hired in late July, he went out to TX for his training and then a week later the DD quit. Since the other one was up at camp, over two hours away, he was thrown in to the mix doing school night recruiting with only the District Commissioner Staff there to help.

Camp is very important, but so is recruitment, and when a district like mine is short staff, we can't afford to have pros gone for the summer.

I think there are pros and cons to the situation, and each depend upon your own distict make-up.

I concur with everything that has been said.

Please contact your District Executive, he or she will know who the COR and IH are and can point you in the right direction. Ask them for the contact information for your District Commissioner, so you can have a Unit Commissioner assigned. One should have been assigned from the begining to help mentor your unit leaders through the first year or so.

It sounds like your thinking is on the right track, put together a committee and take the next few months to work out next year's events and get out there and recruit! Great program brings in the boys!

Sorry to hear about your troubles, and I hope everything works out for your and your Pack.

92, although they no longer fit, I still have my tan BSA shorts and red BSA Polo. The Polo I could have gone without, but I did use to run around camp with the tan BSA shorts and a Troop t-shirt.

Sorry!

Yes...but it also says the following:

"The logos available below are for use by units and local councils for websites and presentations. For access to high-resolution logos, please contact the BSAs Licensing and Trademark Protection Team at 1-800-323-0732 or by email at licensing@scouting.org" Bold added for emphasis.

If you are going to use the bull, I'd go with a licenced BSA seller.

It would seem you have a much bigger problem in the mix.

As far as preventing what happened...as mentioned in the other threads, it is up to the SM to certify that the Scouts are eligible, including living up to the Scout Oath and Law.

I truely believe that OA elections should be a popularity contest....all things being equal, I would hope that the most popular Scouts are the ones that embody the Scout Oath and Law and provide Cheerful Service to their fellow Scouts. But I realize that is not always the case.

Hopefully this event can be used as a learning opprotunity and that the group of "motivated" Scouts can make some positive change with the troop.

I was very skeptical when I became an Associate Chapter Adviser when I rejoined Scouting after College. I was away from 1997-2003, and in those few short years, the OA changed quite a bit in my eyes. But, just last year I was helping a Team do an election in a Troop. This Troop had 6 eligible Scouts and only elected 1. Before the election was closed (The election was held at Camp) I went up to one of the younger Scouts and asked if we was going to turn in his ballot. His reply was: "No sir, I've only been in the Troop a couple of months and I really don't know those boys really well. I don't want to vote if I can't tell who is who."

Young men will suprise you and I'm sure the group of "motivated" Scouts will soon figure it out and want to help push the Troop along.

Question for the forum...

Do you trim the excess fabric backing off of your award knots before you sew them on your uniform?

Another Scouter made the observation last night that my knots where neatly placed in a row on my shirt and that all the excess material was trimmed. I never noticed it before, but I guess a lot of folks just sew them on without "squaring" them up.

I appreciate your responses.

*I have not, or ever will be a member of the UP...but I do try to wear my uniform correctly!

My wife said the same thing...as soon as she looked at the cover, she said it looked "creepy".

Wow...thank you for the notice.

He and I exchanged emails a little while back and we were planning on getting together at Conclave, as we were in the same Section.

It is a sad...Matt was a great resource and we had some good conversations about our old Three Rivers District in Germany, Intercamp, and the BEL. He will be missed.

I am a former TAC Scout and BEL Arrowman.

My suggestion would be check out Matt Kirkland's website blackeagletrader.com, he might have something to trade. He and I were in the same district as youth, just a couple towns away from each other.

The NOAC patches will be close to impossible to get a hold of, being such a small lodge, not many were made, and folks like to keep them in their collection.

I might have an extra S-22 in my collection, but I would have to look.

Thanks, I'm glad I could be of service.

You have an older Assistant District Commissioner Patch with the Arrowhead Honor below.

Take a look at the link and you'll see what I'm talking about.

http://www.sageventure.com/history/commissioner/

Hope that helps!

In my district, not much, as my chapter is almost non-existant. But, council wide, many of the larger chapters do a LOT of cross-overs. So many, that some of the chapters have to turn down Packs do to their schedule.

Our lodge also sponsors our "OA Trailblazer Adventure Camp" each October, 2010 being the 10th year. We do it in conjunction with the US Sportman's Alliance, the Georgia Department of Natual Resources, and others...think a one day "Day Camp" on steriods. BBs, Archery, slingshots, tomahawk throwing (wooden), interactive games, demostrations from all kinds of organizations, animals, ect.

I think we do a pretty decent job supporting Cub Scouts...but if anyone is interested, pick up or order a copy of "Order of the Arrow: Cub Scout Support Tool Kit". I recieved my free at a NLATS training weekend. Decent videos and an printable PDF of the Arrowman Guide Booklet to help support Cubs.

Fight, fight, fight for FSU!

I'm in the same boat...alot of my family, including myself, went to Florida State.....except for my wife, she went to the dreaded "U". Although I forgive her, as she was an athlete there and had school paid for.

First car I drove: my parents 1979 Buick Electra Estate Wagon, which came stock with an Oldsmobile small-block 403....although it didn't have a lot of HP (around 200), it did have approximately 350 ft/lbs of torque. I could beat a lot of people off the line with that thing (including friends who had 80's and early 90's Camaros, Firebirds, and Mustangs), but as soon as we got down the road a bit, it get passed.

First car that was "mine": 1985 Pontiac 6000 which had bench seats...and which proved useful in HS! Not much to look at, but with 89 cent gas, I could fill it up for less than $10!

First car that I purchased: 1978 Corvette...right when I turned 21. I did the body work and repainted it, re-did the interior, ect. I still have it, but it's back in Florida at my parent's home in storage.

First new car I purchased: 2004 Pontiac Aztek...most people think it's ugly as sin, but it is the most utilitarion vehicle I've driven. It' has come very handy with Scout stuff as the back seats fold down, flip up, and even come out, lots of configurations, which means it carries a lot of stuff.

In my lodge, the LEC takes nominations on youth members who will serve on the Founder's Award Committee (which is formed and then disolved when the Founder's Award selection is complted).

The names are left "nominated" for one month and at the next LEC ballots are turned in. The top 5 vote earners are on the committee with the next two as alternates. I believe the Lodge Advisor serves as the committee Advisor for the meeting.

In our lodge, youth only vote in both Vigil nominations and the Founder's Award. The only Adult in the room is the advisor to either committee...who does not have a vote and is basically there for clarification on rules.