eagle77

Brent,

Nice post. I don't think the politicians are the only ones to blame. The only way they were able to do this was because John Q Public put them in power to do it. Look at some of the turnouts at the polls. Too many people today do not take advantage of the power that they have in voting. These people need to spend some time in a country where the public has no say, has no rights. Then maybe they would actually appreciate what their vote means. Then there are those out there that really want the government in control of everything. I don't know which is scarier. Lifetime politicians need to be done away with. Our leaders need to worry more about what is going on here at home instead of trying so hard the other way to please other governments that would love to do away with the USA.

Let's see, canoeing in the boundry waters, camping in the florida keys, going outdoors and showing the scouts (our future) how to enjoy it without destroying it. I wish more single men would get off there duffs and stop watching the boob tube and start caring about tomorrow. Because they are to closed minded to do it doesn't mean that I and others like me have to. Besides that it is a blast!!!

Great idea to tie it in with the Citzenship badges. Showing the boys or at least giving them idea of how the "system" works. Only thing is they may not like how slow the "system" works at times.

Let me just correct something. My father wasn't in the state prison, but he would have been if I told him about what happened he would have maimed or killed the guy for doing it.

SUPERR THANKS FOR ASKING,

I think what offended me so much from the "creepy" or "evil" remark is the fact that I did have shall we say a bad expierence with the last of the 3 scoutmasters I had as a boy. Though he never really got the chance to do anything, I got out and walked home. I did not have at that time anywhere or one that I felt I could go to. If I would have taken this to my dad I would have been visiting him at the state prison. The reason I say this is he had a son in the troop and a daughter that was in my classes at school. So the idea that being a parent and leader as being "safe" just is not on my top list. In addition to my Eagle Charge I also swore I would never let any boy that I led to ever, ever have to go through the internal torture that I did. For the last 15 years all my scouts have to worry about is whether it will rain on the campout and do I have enough socks.

Bill

ScoutsMomSD,

Dr Evil here.

Oh I have the parts. Don't worry about that. I was just overly offended by your post. I also didn't feel that it belonged on this thread. But since you would like it here, okay. By your slim way of thinking I guess all coaches must have a son or daughter on their team in order to be good coaches. Have you been through an expierence that would have you make such a remark? Have you ever heard of the Eagle Charge, in which an Eagle Scout dedicates himself to giving back to scouting what scouting gave to him? I could care less where you stand on political votes, that is up to you and your maker. Just thought it might have been discussed better on the side, or maybe I didn't understand your remark. Just glad you are on the other (way other)side of the country.

Bill

Lem,

If all life is to you is competition then so be it. Scouting isn't a santuary from competition it just isn't the primary goal of it. That is where sports comes in. If you are suggesting that all we should be doing as adults is teach how to compete and beat the other, I think that is real shallow. I am sure there may be camps or councils that offer certain competitions, but it just is.nt the primary goal. Though there are some things that can be learned from competing, is that all there is to life? Maybe all that you feel life is about beating out the competition. How about living with some type of morals and service to others without competing with them? That is the winning that comes from being a boy scout. A scout learns to do his best, not beating the competition to be best. I challenge my boys to compete not only with themselves but with nature. Winter campouts, canoeing in the boundry waters, lighting a fire without matches,be a good citizen in the community, and doing for others. I will tell you this I would much rather have a neighbor that knows or understands what being a good citizen is, then one who has nothing but medals and ribbons on his wall and knows nothing about living with his fellow man.

Ga MillBilly,

I agree LNT stinks of being way too far the other way. I can understand though why this would happen. A few years back while out on a trek at northern tier each crew is asked to clean up the site they stay in (if it needs it). You would not believe all the trash and garbage that our crew alone brought back. From what I could tell it didn't look like Boy Scouts had done it but just the general public going out there and destroying it. When I was a scout it was The Outdoor Code (which is still there) and project S.O.A.R. save our american resourses.

How can we as scout leaders tell our scouts that unless we really need to No fire. I mean unless there is some kind of restriction for drought or wind, this is something every scout looks forward to on a camping trip.

I tell the scouts the same thing my scoutmaster told me, Leave the site as good as if not better then you found it.

Bill

Don't know if I would go that far. But you are right. Not sure if I'm sending the right message to the scouts. "It's okay to break the rules (law)". Kind of sends that me me type attitude that some have today. Do agree though it really kills the "Patrol Method" as Green Bar Bill taught me.

Bill

I'm with Goldwinger, Heritage has got to be one of the best that I have been to in Pa. It offers two totally seperate camps, Freedom and Liberty. One has a mess hall and the other is troop commissary. I have been there twice and stayed both times at Liberty which is commissary. Very good staff too.

He's right the Cub scout motto is "Do your best", the boy scout oath is "On my honor I will do my best" Lem just isn't satified with doing your best. His opinion, I don't agree with the concept, but he is entitled to that. Lem what I meant in my last post was isn't what your doing kind of like somebody saying they could fix my engine in the car, but they have never seen an engine?I listen to all in or out of scouting. I just thought maybe you were new to it.

Bill

JBlake,

I don't run the troop by BSA guidelines all the time either. My point was more to the idea that the boys have the say, and variety helps to keep all happy. Never had an instance where any patrol older or younger wanted to do anything instead of what was discussed by the PLC and I have told them that I would have no problem supporting it either. The only hard thing is that I find it very difficult to push patrol activities. I do remember the good times on a patrol campout as a scout myself, alott of fun and learning. But today with all the legal issues out there it is very hard to do. Not just BSA's dumbing down of the program but the changes in society and laws makes it difficult to let the boys go. That and helicopter parents afraid if Johnny is out of site for 5 minutes. I think this is especially more a problem in some areas of the country then in others. I have always told my scouts "it is your program" and here are some of the things that you can do now run with it.

Bill

Lem,

I could care less whether you are in scouting or not. But how can you comment on a program you haven't done or are in.

Lem,

I understand and I agree with a good amount of what you are saying. I just think that by doing this you would open up another can of worms. Look at some of the other posts on this forum. Activities, requirements, and other things seem to differ from one troop, council, camp, or patrol. Yet we all work out of the same handbook, merit badge pamphlet, etc. I am sorry but I guess Im stupid for only expecting the best out of my boys. There is nothing that I was ever told that said I had to be the best or excellent at everything I did. Strive to improve where I can, yes. But the best at everything, no.

Jblake,

I know of troops in my area that have the same problem you are stating. There are boys that have been to the same camp over and over, they know the rocks by their first name. As a scoutmaster I do not run the PLC, but I do advise them on how the program needs to be spread out for the scouts of different levels. High Adventure type trips of both the weekend and weeks long variety. I have been scoutmaster for 8 years and in the last 7year I have taken all of the scouts in the troop to summer camp, except for 1 this pass year that had a church camp the same week. The boys arent bored because we continue to make sure the troop is going to different places and that these places offer enough variety to accommodate all age groups. I have a troop of 35 boys. Every other year in addition to summer camp is a high adventure camp. So part of that goes with what type of leader the troop has. If you are willing to only go to the same camp or type of camp year after year then your program will suffer. Without variety the scouts will just get bored.

Lem,

Let me see if I can get you to understand what I am saying. First off I never said that boys or girls cant learn from other activities. But you seem to come off with the idea the only way that they can have fun is to compete. Scouting already does have different types of competition in it already at Klondikes and certain Camporees. Our troop is even running a patrol contest right now, the prize is a special party and they will be the first patrol with the new tents we will be purchasing in the spring. This competition is based on advancement, attendance (activities and meetings), uniform inspection, and skill demonstrations.

With how strapped certain councils are now for money I dont know where you figure to get prizes and scholarships. Anythings possible though. I want to tell you something. As my son was growing up he played baseball, soccer, and ice hockey. In addition to being a Cub Scout and Boy Scout. Now my son left scouting to play more ice hockey, the times were demanding and he felt it would take away from his scouting. For everything he did I offered to help out with whatever I could.

One year while playing baseball I was the asst. coach. There was this one boy who came to all the practices, missed only one game, but never got to play the whole game. Before one of our games I received a call from his coach that he would not be able to be there and that I would be running the show. For that game I let that young boy play all 6 innings without having to sit. Now we lost the game, not because of anything that this boy did or didnt do. He had no errors, grounded out, and walked twice. Do you know how many parents called the coach and blamed the loss on the fact that this boy played the whole game? One parent said I let my own son in for the whole game and sat her son so that this, as she called him loser could play. Well my son didnt play one single inning, he was home sick. My point here is although we may have lost the game I and that little boy won though. There is that winning feeling you get, not because you were the best but because you did the right thing. Like it or not there is a difference. Do you think that I want to go through that again? I can see scoutmasters building super patrols to beat out the others at whatever competition you can come up with. Because to these type of people winning is all there is. To me that type of winning is very secondary. Helping to produce good honest citizens to me is the winning in this game. Whether a scout makes Eagle or not, for those years that he was a scout at least he was exposed to a program that asks him to do your best not be the best.

Lem,

My statement of fun and learning was a generalization, if you would like I would have listed everything from the oath, law, motto, and slogan sorry. I did forget duty to God and Country. If you would have read my statement correctly you would have noticed a word there before activities. Competitive. In competitive activities there is a winner and a loser, scouting should be a win, win type of activity. The only competition is for the youths time with practice and games.

Lem you wrote.

And I have to agree that rotund men and women have issues that they have not addressed. And they should get a handle on it if not for themselves, then for the idea of being a role model. Unless you think we want to send the message to our young men that scouting really doesnt take too seriously its program and its talk about physical fitness.

I take it you are a gym guy. Let me ask you something. So if you are out of shape you are a poor role model? How about the gigantic role models that are on the front line of pro football teams, the big guys competing in the olympics, or the out of shape teacher at school, or for that matter mom or dad. All of them are role models that I see as having more time and exposure to scout age youth. All of these are role models, but only out of shape scout leaders are expected "at least in your perfect shape world" to be worth anything. I have met plenty of people that are in shape and have no fat on them what so ever, they are also as dumb as a bucket of rocks and have no ability to work with the youth. I also think you need to stop looking or camparing scouting to other things that are based on competitive activities, this is not a race but a learning and fun time. You just seem to be one of those people that looks only at the outside and dismisses what is on the inside, which I see as way more important.

Well got to "walk" and get me some good fast food to plump up on.

The real scary part to me is you will pass on this stupid prejudice to our youth.

Phillyscout,

I am from the old Philadelphia Council. While a scout (70's) TI was closed for what we were told was regrowth. What do you think was one of the major reasons for the merger with Valley Forge Council? Low membership in the city and the TI money pit. I did get to spend some weekends there though. Have you read the council's report? New enviromental rules among many others just don't make it feasible to keep the camp open. Many of the things that you mentioned like getting to your campsite, flushey's, etc. are what todays scout leaders are looking for. Many scout leaders today are not looking for a challenging outdoor type program. Like it or not simply getting on the island can be a real headache. I have known many who have camped and staffed TI. Good group of staff year after year, but what good is great staff with an opsolete camp.

Let COL council put all the added money into Resica and Hart where they can serve more scouts then they can on the island. I hate to see it go, but that is one of the down sides of progress.

Good question. Over the years that I have been SM and ASM I have always been in charge of the summer camp program for the boys. Though I do offer the boys a selection of camps to go to, first I sit down with the ASM's and discuss the programs offered at area and out of area camps.Then the boys will have a meeting where we show them the different camps for the up coming year. I have found that the scouts are more open to programs that vary from merit badges offered to off site type of activities. Cost is also a major player. One year I was able to take the boys down to Piedmont, NC from Bucks County, Pa and it was a whole lot cheaper then going the 15 minutes to our council camp. The other big plus was the boys getting to see scouting in another part of the country. By the end of the week they were all talking with a southern accent. More then anything the camp was big and we were not shoved into a small area, we couldn't even see the next site from our own. Another thing is merit badge mills. I have problems with these type camps and our troop tries to stay clear of them. Summer camp to me is an oppurtunity for advancement, but also more importantly some good old fun.

having a great staff is also important, but I have found at times some camp staffs can totally change from one year to the next. I don't know about some of you, but I really like to have a site just for out troop. We have had to share sites some years and for the most part our expierence has been on the down side. From having a para-military type group to a total street thug troop. If the boys are uncomfortable in their "home" for the week then the whole thing is ruined. Fortunatly we have a large enough group that we can find or get our own site. Also I do like it if camps would tell us that we are sharing a site before we arrive. It works better if you know up front what is going on.

One other thing is making sure the boys have a good time, have what is needed (water balloon launcher, etc.) I am constantly walking around and making sure the boys get what is coming to them. A good summer camp time.

One question. Why is that leader you know not you?

scoutingtexas,

I am a SM and for a long while I was an ASM. One thing is I never forgot what my job was. As an ASM my job was to work with and support the SM. When the SM program was moving away from what the boys and what BSA says they should be doing, I sat down with him and talked about adjusting the program a bit. Mainly because scouts told me what they would really like to do. When he refused to even bend a little and give these boys a true scouting program, I decicded that I could no longer support his style of scouting. I told him and the other leaders that I was resigning and going to another troop. One month later I was the new SM of the troop. No name calling or back stabbing, he didn't want to do it anymore and I wanted to do it in the worst way. Not because my son was there. If all you want is to SM a troop your son is in then maybe you need to find a COR that would like to start or revive their scouting program. From the way you come off though it seems your troop would fold the day after your sons 18th birthday or his Eagle. A good scoutmaster, to me, is dedicated to the scouting program and all the scouts that are in the program, not to being a SM for their son. Just a thought.

Bill

That is one loaded question jblake-47. I think one answer is maturing. Think of some of the things you did while growing up. Many that I did I stopped doing or lost interest in doing. I began to grow and as I grew I narrowed down the things that I really wanted to devote my time to. For me scouting was one thing that did not depend on being a jock or nerd, all I had to do was sit back have fun and learn. We are working and learning with boys that are maturing into young men and as they get older they too will begin to narrow down that field of likes and really likes list.

The other thing is that what I have noticed today is more of a switch to a jack-of-all-trades instead of a master of one or two. The addition of year round sports (fall soccer, indoor soccer, spring soccer), then comes the icky part girls and gas. That is some heavy competition.

The only thing I can really say is go with what you have and make it something that those boys will one day be telling the scouts that they are leading.

Bill

Hey GaHillBilly,

I've been looking for a reason to step down as scoutmaster, I guess you have now given me an excuse. I don't know if the 30 or so boys in the troop I scoutmaster for would agree. I have been in scouting for over 28 years now and yes I have seen some of the scoutmasters that would fit into your #1 category. Myself included. But I have seen many more who are not in that category who are just as bad, if not worse. Putting labels such as you have is really some form of shall we say hazing. As a scoutmaster it is my job to train the SPL and provide a challenging yet learning type of program. Nowhere does it say I need to be of top physical shape. Our troop is located just outside of Philadelphia, in Bucks County, Pa. Go Phillies!! In the 8 years that I have been scoutmaster our troop has gone to Northern Tier, Florida Sea Base, Texas, North Carolina, Ohio, white water rafting, white water canoeing, and Virginia. All of which I have either done myself with the scouts or worked support for, but more then anything every single one of them I was there when the boys left and when they returned. Each winter our troop goes skiing, something I have never been able to do. Do you notice something here? Any limitations that I may physically have, don't seem to interfere with what is offered to the scouts. All a good scoutmaster needs to do is use the resources that is at his call and make it happen. Because I earned my First Class before the 1972 scouting requirement revamping some of the things I needed to do for rank advancement these kids have no idea about. (stars, signaling or morse code, tracking) If at any time I come across something that I know or I do not have the proper training or knowledge in, I find someone or something that is.

In addition to the fact that I am an Eagle Scout, I am always looking at new ways to do scouting and training in doing that. I have been to PTC twice, I am woodbadge trained Antelope NE-II-123, but the best and most rewarding training is the weekly meeting and monthly activities that I do with the scouts. OBTW I did not become scoutmaster till after my son left scouting, so my only tie down is the love of scouting that I have. Your #1 needs to say only one thing:

1. A scoutmaster needs to be DEDICATED to the scout law and oath and doing whatever it takes (within reason) to see that his scouts do the same and have a blast doing it. I will not sell my scouts short and just say good time. With todays competion you need to have a program that goes above and beyond good. So before you just sell out an entire group of people, maybe you need to get around and spend more time with the dedicated group not the I wear a uniform group.

Bill

I think Dr Goodman would be turning in his grave if Cradle of Liberty Council kept dumping more money in to this camp. I am from the old Philadelphia council and spent many nights on TI. (when it was open)Even spent a few weekends on the northern island once called Eagle Island (I think that was the old explorer base). Do you really know how much money this council has thrown at TI? I think the good doctor would rather see that money used at the council's other camps where it could be used to make a better camping for more scouts. Any good scouter hates to see a scout camp go away. Especially a camp with the history of TI. Anymore though the flood waters would come more often and take away and damage more and more of the camp. I mean they might as well stand at the banks of the Delaware and just throw cash right into the water. It's either that or come up with the technology to put the island on stilts and keep it above the flood waters. Sorry to see the old camp go, but it is better for the council and the scouts the council serves for it to go.

I think what bothers me even more is that 5 other troops thought nothing of it and took their troops to this ceremony too. I don't need no weather training, this is a common sense type thing. These parents are trusting you and other adults to make good firm decisions with their most prised pocession, their children. Time to really sit back and think about this. What would you do if it was just a troop camp out?