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Posts posted by eagle77

  1. No problem except the way most camps have their program areas all scheduled up for merit badges there really is very little that these boys can do. The last thing I wanted to do when at summer camp was just sit around. I think this is one of the major problems with summer camps today, they are all geared up for merit badges and offer very little open time for scouts to just try something new out. I don't want rifle shooting merit badge, but sure wouldn't mind taking a few rounds and trying it out.

  2. The people who I hear constantly complaining about too many kids in college are those who never went themselves due to poor grades or a lack of ambition to better themselves.

    Ignorance loves company as much as misery I guess.



    I resent your remark. I never went to college, never saw anything that interested me. I was in the top 100 of my graduating class and had plenty of ambition, just did not see college as the answer. For 25 years I have worked at a company whose plant manager had the sick way of thinking like you. Watched college grads come and go. I was constantly on my plant managers back to promote me. Always said the same thing you do no degree no promotion. Two years ago his back was to the wall and he needed someone to take over as foreman to run our shipping dept. To tell you the truth I think he was trying to set me up and prove I did not have the brains to do the job. Well in the first quarter from when I was promoted overtime was down, tons shipped were up, customer complaints were cut in half. I know it really bothered him to admit he was wrong for all those years. To make the remark you did is just another example of the closed minded attitudes that seem to fuel the run on attending college. Its whats inside the person heart that matters not what degree he has hanging on the wall.


  3. SMB,

    If all you are looking to do is go to your council camps, then your right you are limited. Just a little history because I am from the old Philadelphia Council. Delmont and Resica falls were the council camps for the old Valley Forge Council, Hart and TI are the old Philadelphia Council Camps. When Valley Forge and Philadelphia Council merged they all became Cradle of Liberty. The main problem here was all the money that was put into keeping TI running, little money was used to upgrade and improve Hart. Delmont's problem I believe is the location of the mess hall. It sits right along Uniami creek and if I'm not mistaken was flooded out and is no longer used for summer camp but is used for weekend camping. Have you looked at the camps in the neighboring councils? I know in Bucks County you have Ockonickon (which is actually closer then TI). There is also Trexler and camp Minsi to north. If it was really all about the $$$ TI would have been shut after the first major flood that damaged the northern island (eagle Island) which was the council's Explorer camp, and the main body of TI itself.

  4. My scouting and training have taught me to look at all opinions both pro and con. I have yet to see one positive thing from him at all. It just seems to me that he has an axe to grind and instead of taking it to the grinding wheel (BSA) he has brought it here to the watering hole (volunteers). I'm an "intelectual coward" because I don't get all bent out of shape because of some contract that I know nothing about and had nothing to do with.

  5. Don't know about you out there, but doesn't it seem kind of strange that Merlyn keeps shoving in our faces "his " issues with BSA? Don't know about many of you but I haven't signed any contract with the public schools or any of the other things that he continues to bring up and shove in our faces. Now I may not be happy with that end of the deal, but there really isn't much I as a volunteer I can do about it. If he is trying to drive me away from this program that won't work either, just one smile or that look of accomplishment on a young boys face is so priceless I can't explain it. To me it's like being a store owner and complaining to the delivery truck driver that I am upset with the taste of the soda that you just delivered. The driver has nothing to do with that at all does he? Seems to me Merlyn should be voicing his complaints to the Professionals that run our program not us volunteers.

  6. Please do not try and reinvent this. The way it is set up works fine. The problem isn't the program its the adults leading the program. I had the same problem as JBlake there were 10 WII in the pack, the WII leader had no interest in Boy Scouting and passed that along to each and every cub and parent in the Den, two entered our troop and left after summer camp. Like it or not many packs and troops are sometimes stuck with putting the only person willing to volunteer for that job. Sometimes you luck out and get some really good leaders, but lately I've been finding that more and more are either poorly trained or hardly trained at all and know very little about what their actual job is.

  7. Yann,

    BSA was started 100 years ago. At that time it was believed that having some kind of a belief in a higher power rounded out being a scout. Over and over today we continually see on these forums the argument to allow gays and atheists into the program. Personally I have no problem with it, my family background and scouting background have helped me greatly to get along with others. The problem, I think comes in with the many religions that sponser and support scouting groups across the country. Many of these groups have problem with one or both of these issues. If BSA were to change their stance on these two issues many of these organizations would drop BSA like a hot potato and incurage their members to do so too. I do not think that BSA would survive the masses that would walk away from the program. Right now BSA's biggest competitor is not an alternate type program but sports, school and other activities. And until one comes along I don't think you will see any change.

    Though I do believe in God I walked away from organized religion when I was younger for just this reason. My relationship with my higher power is between me and him. For those who choose not to believe, to me is your right as well. Religion has been the source over the centuries for war and other cruel things, until certain religions are willing to accept other beliefs or no belief at all what we have is what got.

  8. I do the samething. The first couple Eagle BOR's I sat in on with the scouts. After that I thought that this was the first of many interview type meetings these boys may go through. No time like now to begin going solo. I sit and discuss things that maybe asked and give them tips on how to explain and what certain body language type things can do too. After presenting them to the board I will go out and wait for them to complete. Most of the scouts I have done this with thank me even more for helping and trusting them to preform well. Like it or not sooner or later you need to let them do it all.

  9. Too bad it is just not that easy. I know of other leaders who are dealing with low attendence at times, just as our troop is, not because of a boring program but because of mandatory attendence at other activities. Many times it is also not the choice of the scout as much as it is their parent or parents. There are many parents out there leading their second childhood through their sons and daughters. Though I do not feel the need to set attendence rules I do understand sometimes why others do. For our scouts attendence means better and more interesting activities that they plan and put together. Certain times of the year the program is just plain, nothing I or the scouts can do about it, when over 3/4 of the troop is involved in one or two activities at the same time, like it or not program suffers and so do they. Their choice though not mine.

  10. I agree, the first thing is what do the boys think. Although having a good patrol type program is good it is only one of the methods of scouting. Were the patrols organized and doing things together? Do the boys actually have a say in the program or is it adult run? The one on one is really not something that you are looking for in Boy Scouts, in fact more of the other way, little or less one on one. What about program, I know some troops do a great many activities, over and over to the point that older scouts may get bored. I'd rather be in a troop that did less activities, but with more of a challenge and difference to them (canoeing, High Adventure, Splunking, etc). Was a good amount of the troop in uniform? Were there scouts with different rank advancement on their shirts?

  11. Well Get Outdoors my scouts would be the last to tell you that I am some kind of egomaniac. Because of limited time and space I only keyed on the major issue that broke things wide open. First off both of these boys came from a family of little or no diciplin. Their father was an ASM in the troop. We had to constantly walk on egg shells when either of his sons stepped out of line, because anytime anyone PL, SPL,or adult leader said anything about what they were doing wrong he would jump on them with all his might. We had to go through many meetings and discussions to even get this guy to understand the situation. I had 32 boys in the site that year at camp, 30 of them listened to what I and the staff said about the food and certain smellys in the tents. They still decided that what we said was not important. Let me put this to you, If your son was sharing a tent with one of these boys and followed the rules but was mauled or attacked by a bear that smelled his tentmates food, would you simply except the fact that it was just kids being kids? The final decision to send these brothers home came from the SPL, who was more afraid of retaliation from the boys parents then he was of the boys themselves. Because as far as things went their kids did no wrong, it was everyone else who was wrong.

  12. I am in the same boat as Stosh. On most trips I am pretty open with what a boy may or may not bring on the trip. But there are always these pesky kids who decide they just need to see how far they can push. Example we were attending summer camp in an area where bears had been very active and on camp property. Strongly told the boys NO FOOD and NO DRINKS (other then water) in tents. Told them this each and every meeting up to camp time. Second night at camp I find two boys (brothers) that decided not to listen to what I told them. Explained to them the reason why and then sent them home. Mom and dad were pretty upset, not with them but with me. Just could not get them to understand the danger that what they had done was to the other boys in the troop, didn't care either. Once we returned home I visited their home and kindly asked them to find another troop, that they were no longer welcome. Notified CC and COR and both agreed with me. Some of these kids parents just don't care what their kids do. Like it or not they will either listen or be asked to walk away. Their choice.

  13. I know what you are saying SMT224, I had a young scout at summer camp who felt he was being bullied because he wanted to play cards one evening with some of the boys and wasn't willing to wait until the next hand to get into the game, went home told mom and dad that the scouts were bullying him. I think it also makes it easier for the parents to say my son left because he was bullied by others, not my son left because he couldn't do it or like doing it.

  14. Well to add a little more to that, four of the ten families returned the money and asked that it be used to help out other scouts in the troop who maybe were not as well off as they were. To me that is a scouting type of attitude. While we were at summer camp I ran into 3 of the 4 boys at the trading post, it was hot and dry out and I asked them if they would like to have a slush puppy with me. After getting them we walked outside and 1 of the boys asked "why did you buy these for us?' I simply replied "because it feels good". We need to further teach our youth that they sometimes will need to do something just because it feels good and for no other reason then that.


    That all or nothing attitude is why many boys and girls today do not apply themselves or work harder at things. Why should they try and do better and stick it out, the others who did little or nothing will get the same thing as me, so why go the extra mile?

  15. Geez, let's keep that selfish "what's in it for me" attitude going strong. Even when they are trying to help their own troop let's reward them with requirements or a party. This will produce a great base for our society in the future. Our troop had a similar type of activity where we set up a table at the local community day event in the town park. I asked boys to sign up and be at the location at a certain time to help set up and run the info booth. Out of the 18 boys who signed up only 10 made it, some could only stay for a few hours but the time they could give was well appreciated. I had received a decent bonus from work and was really thinking how or what to do with some of the money. Well at the end of the next meeting where I get my chance to address the troop, I called up 8 of the 10 boys (2 could not make the meeting) and annouced that for their unselfish act of helping the troop and giving of their free time I was going to pay $50.00 of their summer camp fee. Because what they had done shown was what true scouts are or should be. Many of the parents are in the back during the end of our meetings waiting for their boys. I never saw so many jaws drop at one time in my life. The following week at the committee meeting some of these parents came to voice their anger at me "showing favoritism" to certain boys. Once they all had their say like "If I would have known you were doing that then my son would have been there". I stood and told them that as scouts and good members of the community they should not be willing to do something just because there is something in it for them. That the 10 boys who did show up and give service did it only because they felt or believed it was the right thing to do. Some of these boys and their families were at the event they just didn't want to be seen by others as being boy scouts. So let's keep it going and keep on teaching our boys that service and time spent should always have some kind of reward. I guess the reward of just knowing that you did something that was right and helpful just does not cut it today.

  16. I think part of the problem is training the boys in what areas of the planning are theirs and which is adult. In our troop we have a PLC meeting every month, seperate from the troop meeting. At this meeting the SPL is given a check list for the upcoming months trip. This list is broken down with scout and adult areas that need to be checked off by the end of the meeting. My scouts don't make reservations nor do they drive, so that area is covered by the adults, but is still listed on the sheet so that the scouts can really see and appreciate what is involved in planning even the simplist of trips. The more involved the trip the more each group needs to take on. Both adults and scouts. At the end of the trip before we leave we do a rose and thorn type thing to look at what needs improvement and what worked just fine. I don't believe the scouts should be involved directly with each item for a trip but they do need to know what is totally needed by all to make it happen.

  17. Maybe the problem is the outgoing SPL is running the PLC for the upcoming year in which he will not be running the troop. The other boys who are hoping for the position are trying to get what type of program they would like should they win the election. Two problems that I see are the SPL for the upcoming year should be the one running this planning meeting.The other is getting all the boys to understand servant leadership. Which basically states doing what the boys in the troop would like or what is good for the troop and not just what they want or desire.

  18. Why does everyone say that a training like this (AOLS) would be supplemental? If we boast or brag that we are "the" outdoor program. why shouldn't at least 1 or 2 of the adult leaders (SM & ASM) be trained in this type of training? By making it supplemental it is just another "If I feel like it" type trainings. To me every SM should be required to have training in the outdoors. Lots more then what is offered now. To me that is like saying I can be an electrician and not know anything about electricity. I do know that brings in the old problem of the different ways that councils train there adult leaders. I would rush at the chance to learn even more or just get a review of what I learned as a scout. But I'm sure others would just overlook it as a waste of time. So the problem of having adult leaders who are inept or afraid of the outdoors will still be among us. This is also what helps to chase boys away from the program and scouting. Just think your a young guy and would really like to get outdoors and camp, the only troop in the area has a scoutmaster who is scared as anything or has no idea what to do in the outdoors. Good bye scout or scouts. In some areas this might not be a problem, like mine where you have different troops within just a few miles of each other, but what about other areas where troops aren't as plentiful?


  19. That is the rub. Many times the only reason an adult is wearing that SM or ASM patch is because he or she is the only one willing to put the time and effort into it. Again many times they are there just in body and never take the program to the fullness that they should. How much time and effort or training they take beyond what BSA mandates is up to them. I have seen many of the leaders that you describe. But I think its the same in any organization that depends strongly on volunteers. Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. By the way I have been in scouting for over 30 years but I do not really consider myself an outdoorsmen. I love the outdoors and respect it but I also have my limits both physically and knowledge. That is where some of these other guys loose it and just don't take the time or even have the time to further their knowledge and ability to love and appreciate the outdoors for what it really is.

  20. Alright Gern, our WB course is a two weekend type course. On the first weekend we do most of the butt time. Get to know each other and do some simple tasks together. In between the first and second weekend we will have a patrol meeting set up and agreed to by the members of the patrol. At this meeting we discuss the menu and equipment needed for the second weekend. Each of us is given a task or item to get for this. This is all done by the members of the patrol, no WB staffer is involved. Sounds like the patrol method to me. On the second weekend we distribute the materials amongst ourselves and whatever is way to heavy will be driven in. We then put on our backpacks and hike the 2 miles to the camping area, there we are assigned patrol sites away from the other patrols. We then set up and get things together. Now there is some time where we are together under a large tarp, but not looking at any powerpoints. Here we get to work and listen to some of the presentations concerning the outdoor planning. I can't speak for how other councils hold their WB course, but ours was indoor and outdoor. But it seems to me that you are not pro WB so maybe it would not really matter anyway.

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