Eagle74

Another potential source for used climbing rope for knot tying practice is the fire department or a USAR (Urban Search and Rescue) team if there is one in your area. Because our rope is used for rescue and rescue training purposes we regularly and frequently rotate rope to out-of-service status for life-safety reasons. I can say that in our case, we would be happy to see it put to such a good use. The original lengths as we use it range from 100 to 300 feet. The only stipulation would be that we would cut it to your prescribed lengths so that we know it can't be used for climbing, rappelling, etc. (liability reasons). It is also still useable as "utility" rope around camp.

It's all in the eyes (ears) of the beholder.

For several years now I have put together a PowerPoint slideshow - set to music - of the past year's events for the August COH. For the last one I used an excerpt - the last 1/4 of the song - from P.O.D.'s "Youth of the Nation". To the words of '. . . we are, we are, the youth of the nation . . . ' the slides are of old Norman Rockwell prints. I also used this section as part of a slideshow during my son's Eagle COH.

A number of people commented to me about how much they enjoyed that section of the show; how emotional they thought it was. If they knew the rest of the song they probably wouldn't feel so good about the mix of the song and the scouting slides. But the music excerpt is powerful when set against the Rockwell scouting slides.

A little poetic license and an artful mix of seemingly paradoxical things can result in totally different point of view, although sometimes the paradox is recognized by the astute observer much to his humor.

It's all in the eyes of the beholder.

(If you want to see for yourself and you have access to PowerPoint, I'll email that section of the show. Email me via the forum.)

If this is the case (21 years old) there sure have been alot of ASM adult leader applications accepted from our troop in error. We currently list at least 5 in the 18 - 21 range.

BW, I don't have a *problem* with it. I don't see anything wrong with it. The comment was partially tongue-in-cheek. We have used popcorn sales to fund the entire Cub Pack and Troop programs for years. I fully agree it is an excellent product.

The "like quality or merchandise" is not in the value of the popcorn; it's in the value of the program that your "donation" funds.

The simple fact is that you pay more for the product because there is a built-in additional mark-up - a donation - over and above the product suppliers profit margin, for funding of BSA and local unit activities. The cost of the popcorn is in reality the cost of the product (with profit margin for the supplier) + a donation to BSA + a donation to local unit. Is there anything wrong with that? No. Is there anything secretive or veiled? No. I would venture that everyone buying the popcorn (Girl Scout cookies, etc) already knows that and not unless you imply or think that you are giving/getting true value for the cost of the product.

And no, I haven't bought any bottled water lately - or ever - for the very reason that you mention. And yes, I am aware of the profit margin on furniture - it's the same or more for automotive parts. Difference is I can buy furniture at sale or clearance prices, but when my car needs a part I can't wait.

I digress. We have had an ongoing discussion at work about the plethora of fundraising activities we are all involved with directly or indirectly. Between school, scouts, sports, church, etc., etc., etc., it is unbelievable how much time and effort is spent on raising money for these organizations. We came up with a solution. Rather than you buying $30 worth of stuff from me and me in turn buying $30 worth of stuff from you - and this occurs many times over with many other people, lets say $300 per year worth of stuff per person - let's just all quit trading $ and give it directly to the organization we're raising money for. Heck, let's even sign a contract so everyone is bound to actually donating the $ each year. No fuss, no muss, a lot less work, no begging or cajoling, no guilty feelings.

"The BSA requires that a unit exchange a like quality service or merchandise in exchange for money." Boy Scout popcorn? BW, wouldn't want to touch that one with a ten-foot pole; though not disagreeing with what you have stated regarding fundraising.

Thanks for the tip. Always looking for new material for JLTs, etc. I'll have to check it out.

Agreement here on having the APL fill the role. I hesitate to use the term "chain of command" with its military connotation, maybe organizational line of authority might be better. The positions in Scouting as well as other well led organizations exist to allow for a smooth transfer of authority and responsibility both up and down the ladder of the organization's structure. This situation fits neatly into the reason for the APL (ASPL, ASM, etc.) position - normally assigned duties, plus stepping up /acting as "fill-in" as the occasion arises. The hard part would be when to draw the line if it becomes a more permanent situation - drags on for several more months.

For the APL, this is his opportunity to shine without intent to usurp the position, even though it could help him to attain the PL position next time around.

Yes, the BOR does determine whether the candidate actually has performed as necessary to qualify for the Eagle Rank, or not. The details are found in BSA's "Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures" manual.

For instance, execution of the Eagle project as pre-approved by the Unit Leader, Troop Committee, Benefactor and District Advancement Committee is reviewed by the BOR. "This pre-approval . . . does not meant the the BOR will approve the way the project was carried out." Herein lies one of the problems with a last-minute project. All work on the project is to be completed before the 18th b'day; if the BOR finds the project unacceptable, he is out of time to take any corrective measures as recommended by the BOR.

The BOR will also:

determine if ". . . good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life."

". . . make sure that a good standard of performance has been met."

". . . make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community."

". . . make sure that the work has been learned and completed."

The BOR must reach a unanimous decision as to the candidate's qualifications (emphasis on unanimous). Again, if the candidate's qualifications are not found to be unanimously satisfactory, for one who has now passed his 18th b'day, there is no recourse for the BOR to work with the candidate toward correction of deficiencies and reschedule another BOR. In this case, the only recourse is for the Scout, his leader, or parents to appeal the decision not to recommend through National. This gets quite messy.

Because of the grief caused by the manner in which this candidate ultimately completed the technical requirements of the rank - the lack of a good standard of performance - several of those who would normally sit for an Eagle BOR have requested not to be asked to do so because knowing what they know, they do not feel that that they would honestly be able to "vote" in the affirmative, therefore jeopordizing a "unanimous decision."

The one I speak of was the same way. Starting at 1 year out leaders were gently prodding, at 9 months out prodding a little more, by the time 6 months out hit it was down to "Do you want this or not?' and the reply was always "Yes, I'm working on it". It was not us that wanted it for him, he wanted it. He was reminded of a couple of others that almost didn't make it; they too were working up to the last minute, although not nearly at this extreme. But, he didn't want to prepare and work for it. He went into MB counselor sessions totally unprepared. It took repeated meetings about his project and again each time he came in unprepared.

He was unprepared for his last merit badge session on the night before his 18th bday. Counselor finally told him he needed to know the material for the last requirement in order to get signed off (after he had fumbled through the others). He left and went straight to another ("easier") counselor to get the final requirement and merit badge signed off.

kwc57, you're absolutely right. It's totally his own doing, but it has such a wide-reaching negative affect on so many others. Several leaders are disgusted with the way it went down, the merit badge counselors are not happy about having last-minute rushed merit badge work, the advancement chair has been going crazy throughout, scouts were affected since there had to be a last-minute special patrol meeting called for him to do one of the merit badge presentations, project work was scheduled with inadequate notice. Everyone bent over so far backward to accomodate every last-minute need that several broke their backs (figuratively). Nobody directly involved wants to be seated on the BOR.

I'm only happy that I was not asked to be one of the (literally)last-minute people he needed because of his own lack of preparation and planning. In my ever so eloquent manner I would have told him to pound salt - that what makes an Eagle is commitment, drive, responsibility, leadership, and self-sacrifice among other things. All of which are lacking here.

The part that bothers me about it is a feeling of failure as a leader. That it came down to this tells me that the message and lessons of scouting never really got through after all these years. Alas, we put it behind us, move on, and work for better results the next time around.

Maybe I should more properly put this under "Issues and Politics", but here goes anyway. (Have you already picked up on the sarcastic tone?)

Eagle candidate "does/completes" numerous merit badges within last 6 weeks before his 18th birthday (completing most within the last few days) - including some difficult ones like Family Life, Communications, Personal Management, Citizenship in Nation - even switches counselors on one at 10:00pm the night before his 18th bday to complete with an "easier" counselor. Must be led by the hand step-by-step to submit acceptable project paperwork and planning; then rushes through a project completed less than 1 week before 18th bday. Wakes up Scoutmaster at 11:00pm night before 18th bday for a Scoutmaster's conference. Lacking any real show of leadership Troop while a Life Scout.

Gee, nobody wanted to be the one to get blamed for him not making Eagle. Now having trouble getting anyone to sit for the Eagle BOR.

But . . . . yes he did "complete" and get signed off on all requirements in literally the 11th hour. Will his Eagle Ceremony expound upon the quality of youth that makes an Eagle Scout, the leadership qualities an Eagle Scout exemplifies, the example an Eagle sets for his fellow scouts and fellow man, how this Eagle is a beacon for others to follow, how an Eagle soars? You betcha.

I have seen many a Scout push the envelope, but never like this. Eagle Scout? Only technically - and still not in my book.

Does this same thing happen throughout all walks of life every day? Sure it does. Does that make it any more right? I don't think so.

Now that that's off my chest, I have a renewed and fresh appreciation of the Eagle Scout who exemplifies those things that the Eagle Award represents; and an even healthier respect for the accomplishment. When you have one - and I'm sure that speaks for the vast majority - be sure to let them know the significance of their accomplishment; the significance not just of having completed, but completed in an exemplary manner. I know I will make an even more concerted effort to do so from now on.

Thanks for allowing me to vent on this one.

Just curious mk9750, how did things work out?

Good ideas in the posts above. Here are a few more:

Brightly colored rope helps (if nothing else it makes it look more interesting). Two colors work well for knots that are tied with two pieces of rope or both ends of one piece. Tie two different colors of shorter rope together then use the ends. Helps with visualization of the knot.

Once the boy gets the basics of the knot, use it in a practical manner. It's more fun to use the knots to tie a stack of magazines together, lift objects, etc.

Create a challenge or game. Turn off the lights for a prescribed time (1 minute, 30 seconds, etc. and have them tie the knot in the dark). This can progress into a progressive game. Each correct knot (use a different knot for each step) when the lights come on means a step forward, each one wrong means a step backward, until someone reaches the finish line. Be creative and come up with other games or relays.

Here's one that I used with firefighters that can be adapted to Scouts if they are game. We had the firefighter lay down on his back on a mechanic's creeper. He was pushed directly under the pump drain of the firetruck with the rope laying next to him. When the lights went out he had 10 seconds to tie a bowline (now other rescue knots) around himself. He wasn't aware of time unless counting to himself. When finished he would yell and we would pull him out. The kicker was that at 10 seconds someone would pull the pump drain - if he was still under the truck he'd get soaked. If he yelled and came out with the knot tied incorrectly, he had to do it again until he got it right. This can be changed to standing under a bucket of water for Scouts and start out with a longer time. It can be done in the light or in the dark. Reduce the time as they get good at tying the knots. A good activity on a really hot day, when they want to get wet anyway. Only do this with Scouts who volunteer for the challenge - and try to have a leader participate in the challenge. I've purposely taken longer than usual or challeged at such a short time that I knew I'd end up getting wet. The boys absolutely love to see a leader get soaked.

BW is correct. The federal statute is 50 CFR Sec. 22.22. In short:

Native Americans may apply for a permit to take, possess, or transport . . . bald or golden eagles, their parts, nests, or eggs . . . for religious purposes.

It is illegal for all others to possess a bald or golden eagle or any part thereof. There is actually a repository for eagles found dead from which most of the parts come.

Beavers + Eagles became Beagles

Dragons + Cobras became Drobras (not all work out well)

Maybe this should be a new thread, but I've been curious for quite awhile about the Eagle percentage numbers. Is there an explanation for the rise from 2% to 5% over the past 10 years or so? Not to say that being in the 5% is still not a significant accomplishment, but I always just wonder about reasons for a statistical change of 150% of any sort in a relatively short time.

In this situation, use one of the short, sweet, and simple Eagle COH "ceremonies" that can be found in the Advancements section of this site or at eaglescout.org. It can be tied in with a campout, troop gathering, troop COH, or even during a troop meeting.

Not knowing your Eagle, it's hard to know his thinking. Some are quite aware of the significance of attaining the rank, but simply do not like all of the falderall associated with a major ceremony where they are in the spotlight. I have known several who were quite humble about the whole thing and were very content with a simple recognition ceremony. If the Eagle and his parents wish to keep it basic, honor the request.

Please extend my sincere congratulations to your Eagle and best wishes for continued success with honor in his future endeavors.

Correct! The Scoutmaster should not need an invitation to be present at regular meetings of the committee; rather he should be expected to be there.

Then again there are other meetings involving the committee or members of the committee where the Scoutmaster need not be present, is not expected to be present, and at times should not be present. Not that the Scoutmaster should be subverted by a conniving committee, but rather the Scoutmaster does not need to have his finger in every pie the committee bakes. If the Scoutmaster does not have enough trust and confidence in his committee to operate without his presence and the committee does not keep the Scoutmaster up on its doings, there are some serious problems with the organization and its management (and unfortunately this is sometimes the case).

Aside from what the books say - and I agree with most of what has been said - on the practical side from our troop, the SM is a part of all of our regular committee meetings. Along with reports from the treasurer, equipment person, transportation person, COR, etc, there is also a designated spot on the agenda for a Scoutmaster's report. The SM is expected to keep the committee up-to-date on the activities of the troop, how the troop is running, activity plans of the PLC, etc. We also have an SPL report on the agenda, but it is often difficult for the SPL to make this meeting in addition to troop meetings, PLC meetings, etc., so this report is usually forwarded to the committee by the SM. As an ASM I also attend the meetings.

While we both understand that we are "guests", without a vote, the SM provides timely and detailed information regarding the day-to-day operation of the troop (even though we have an "active" committee whose members regularly attend troop meetings). I am considered the "primary ASM" as well as the First-Year Scout Patrol ASM. The reason for me to be at the meetings is in support of the SM and so that I can step in as seamlessly as possible when needed, in his absence. The committee can, and does, listen and give consideration to our comments on various items.

Having been in various positions in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Explorers, I think that sometimes we spend too much time tying our hands so tightly with detailed rules that we fail to function effectively or efficiently. The policies, procedures and rules should always be there in the background and be followed when issues arise, but most of the time the boys are much better served by a concerted group effort that allows some wiggle room and a little less formality.

When I was pack treasurer, accounts were established using the chartered organization's tax ID (church in our case). Any funds of the pack, troop, etc. are technically property of the chartering organization - should your pack fold, all pack property and funds revert to the chartering organization (Bob White, correct me here if I'm wrong).

Two different directions to take in establishing the account:

1. Establish the account with a church official as the primary signator. Have authorized users from the pack (either single signature required for checks or two, depending on how you wish to operate) Reason for a church official (church treasurer for example) as primary is that there is usually an infrequent turnover of people in this position - this way there is a consistent person to make changes to the account such as changing names of authorized users. This can be a disadvantage though, if this person is difficult to get in contact with.

2. Establish the account with a pack official as the primary signator (this could be the treasurer), with additional authorized users as appropriate. The only disadvantage here is that if your primary signator leaves without making proper changes to the account, you might have trouble making the changes without him/her. Make sure that all names/users are kept current.

Some other thoughts:

- Who and how many sign checks needs to be tailored to your operation.

- Treasurer maintains possession of the checkbook at all times.

- Require receipts/documentation or approval as established by the committee for all disbursements.

- Establish which disbursements can be made by the treasurer without prior approval and which type/$amount of disbursements require prior approval.

- Have a treasurer's report and records available at all regular committee meetings.

- Treasurer needs to keep thorough records; there is a fiduciary duty that comes with this position.

- Audits are up to your organization. I recommend that at an annual audit be performed by another committee member as assigned or by someone outside the pack. (A local accountant may do this for no cost if you ask or the CO's treasurer) An audit should always be conducted when treasurers change.

- While rules are needed, don't tie the hands of the treasurer or pack so tightly that getting anything accomplished requires an act of God.

Hope this provides some assistance.

Good alternate activity OGE. Add a mini cyalume light stick (about 1-1/4" x 1/8", sometimes hard to find) to the rocket or the chute pack and you can watch them come down, too.

Liability, Liability, Liability. If for no other reason, a risk management approach indicates there is absolutely no gain for the risk taken. This one is like sticking your behind through the fence and hoping the horse won't kick it.

From the information provided, it appears that you won't meet the basic requirements set forth by BSA. Further, check the law for the area of Canada that you will be in:

"Federal regulations prohibit the use of firecrackers and bottle rockets in Canada. Only low-hazard recreational fireworks may be used by the general public and then, only in areas where local bylaws do not prohibit their use."

Our troop does not own tents; boys must supply their own - and these boys are not from a "money area" (no offense taken).

Pros

- "Ownership" It's yours - take care of it

- No maintenance burden for troop, no storage space needed.

- Doesn't matter if there are 10 kids or 100

- Pride - I sold popcorn, saved my allowance, etc. to buy my tent and I'm proud of it.

Cons

- Financial burden is informally placed on some Scouts and not on others since not everyone buys a tent. I think that both of my sons' tents have been on every campout for the past six years.

- "Ownership" It's not mine, it's Joey's. Joey also usually bears the burden of maintenance, wear, tear, and repair.

- Control of quality/maintenance - some of the tents are not properly cared for, leak when it rains, etc.

- Lack of consistency. Some can only afford a very small tent, others a cabin.

The troops I was in as a Scout and early on in my leader years all owned tents. Personally, I like it better that way. With one troop we had one or two campouts each year where the Scouts could bring their own tents. The present troop does not own tents, has not for as long as anyone remembers, and the prevailing attitude is that it's just one less thing to earn money for and maintain.

Do you suppose anyone from the B.S.A. reads this forum? Do you suppose anyone from the B.S.A. is paying attention?

I am a firm believer that members of an organization with a uniform should be in uniform (as prescribed). But without belaboring this point further . . . low quality coupled with a high price makes this concept a lesson in futility for BSA.

Great stuff here! This is why I keep coming back to the forum. Only wish that all threads were this productive. There is a basketful of good ideas here that I will pursue further for our JLTs.

KoreaScouter - my feelings exactly. I am not aware of any such material from BSA and that's why I did a value-added program. We did follow the JLT handbook, though. I think JLT should be a modular, progressive endeavor. All boys go through the initial, basic JLT and then can move on to more advanced and in-depth training.

The whole idea afterall is to mold and prepare our leaders of the future. As the boys grow in age, rank, and responsibility, their leadership/teamwork understanding and abilities should grow with them through continually challenging material.

Yes, probably the only durable, sensible, utile part of the current scout uniform ensemble. Find the older buckle though to make it even better.

Teach the kids the proper way to wear it metal on metal. Just need to convince them the goal is proper uniform wear; not a fashion statement to have a tail hanging from the belt. Forget about teaching the parents.