Eagle74

Phooey! I just typed a continuation of my earlier post and it disappeared before going through. It's getting late and I'll try again tomorrow.

'A teacher in one of the local elementary schools prepares for each upcoming school year by sending out a friendly letter of introduction to her new students and their parents. Each student is asked to send her a photo of themselves, a copy of a favorite photo of their choice, and a short introduction about themselves - favorite school subjects, favorite things to do, favorite things to eat, etc.'

'The parents are requested to complete a questionaire about their child and are given space to add anything they would like to relate about their child. One of the questions included in the teacher's questionaire: "Is your child a leader or a follower?"'

'A friend was talking about how much he liked the teacher's efforts to get to know her new students before the school year even began. He also added that he had received a second note from the teacher: "Mr. Jones, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you and your son . . . your son is the only follower in a class with twenty-six leaders!"'

More to come; gotta run.

John: It's a take off of what is known as the "prisoner's dilemna" and can be applied to game theory among other things such as political science, behavioral analysis, etc. I will PM you with additional info.

Thanks Mike. Well written. I was thinking about a similar reply when I read the original thread, but was waiting to find a way to carefully craft my response. Experienced the same with a few dens a number of years ago while my sons were still in Cubs and early in Boy Scouts. My question was ". . . is this for you or your boys?" I believe that most of these boys burned out before reaching Boy Scouts as you mentioned - few joined Boy Scouts; most that did dropped out within a very short time. It seemed like it was a struggle to get these lads interested in continuing the scouting trail even though I would consider our troop's program well-rounded with a variety of activities. At first we were looking for a sudden problem within our troop program, but found it odd that it involved the boys from these dens. Prior to and since, bridging and retention were and are good.

Post was intended as an FYI. If/as additional info becomes available locally, I will try to post followups.

Boy Scout Sex Abuse Allegations Surface

Reported by: 9News

Web produced by: Mark Sickmiller

Photographed by: 9News

Last updated: 10/4/2005 5:51:34 PM

Disturbing allegations of sexual abuse have surfaced inside a local Boy Scout camp.

A lawsuit filed against the Boy Scouts of America and the Archdiocese of Cincinnati claims they should have prevented two teens from sexually assaulting an 11-year-old boy.

It claims the teens molested the boy during scouting trips to Camp Friederlander in Clermont County and a camp in Ripley sponsored by St. Veronica.

The boy was sent to the Reverend David Kelley for counseling, who is himself accused of sexually abusing children.

One of the teens faced criminal charges and has been banned from scouting. The other was not charged.

In agreement that much of the (sometimes heated)discussion here and in some other threads is focused on semantics and terminology. Also, I think we often forget to read what comes after the single word identifying each method.

Sometimes I think we make this much harder than it really is, but equally so on both sides of the fence. The "hardliner" right toe the line and become intolerant of any wavering from the narrowest path. The "laissez faire" left operate from a position of anything goes - if it feels good, do it. Somewhere in between are those of us who understand the Vision, Mission, Aims and Methods, do our best to stay within the playing field boundaries, but also realize that at times there will be situations where we must adapt, improvise, and overcome. We do our best to follow the program, live up to the intent of the program, and don't intentionally circumvent the program.

BSA does not cover each and every situation encountered; and the world is not black and white like the printed word. In these situations interpretations and intentions become a factor. That is where my problem is - to whom does one turn or where does one find the "case law" or guiding light. In these situations I don't need a rote recitation of "what it says"; I already know what it says, I need interpretations.

"Life is like a box of chocolates" and Scouting is the one I like best.

Thank you BW for clearing up Green Bar Bill's underlying philosophical emphasis on the Patrol method. Had the honor of meeting with him in 1979 as part of a small group audience open discussion about Scouting. Still have my autographed 9th edition, 1st printing, of what I call "Bill's Scout Handbook". He was a fascinating man to speak with.

My two cents . . . the Aims and Methods (all) are valid and critical to delivery of a "Scouting" program. Do we all do them all well? No. Should we be doing our best to Deliver the Promise by using the Aims and Methods? Yes.

OK, so I want to do the right thing - let somebody know there is an (honest) error on the national website. As BW said, "drop a line to the webmaster". Easier said than done. Have come to the realization that if there is a webmaster (there must be one) there is no contact information that I can find. For that matter, there's no contact info at all - at least not that I can find. Sooooo, I guess the old-fashioned landline phone or snail-mail will have to do. On a take-off of one of my favorite movie quotes, 'What we have here is a failure (of the ability) to communicate (in an efficient manner)'.

Thanks BW, that's what I was thinking . . . will make the contact.

The problem for me was that this became apparent during a discussion of Scouting program delivery (Aims and Methods). In my ever so succinct manner I was pointing out that if one doesn't even know the Vision, Mission, 3 Aims and 8 Methods, how can one deliver the promise? The quick retort was that if I really knew what I was talking about I would know that "there are 7, not 8, methods - the BSA website shows 7, not 8". I could recite the 8 that I knew, but since the person I was having this discussion with could not recall what 7 there were on his list, I looked it up myself on the website. Then I looked it up in at least a dozen other places, before I felt comfortable with the assumption that the web page was not correct.

Evmori, the page you posted is the one I was looking at. Thanks for posting the link.

My original post above was part tongue-in-cheek, particularly after the "New" G2SS thread (which I also did not know was out).

Have been an advocate of the aims(3) and methods(8) of Scouting and try my best to live up to the program. Was on the BSA website this morning looking up some other things and lo and behold, I find that there are only seven (7) methods! What happened to Adult Association? Was there a change somewhere along the line that I missed? Somebody please help me out.

Speaking as a swimming merit badge counselor I do this:

Since the requirements state "before doing the following requirements . . .", I ask to see the Scout's handbook. If the mentioned prerequisite requirements are signed off, I ask a few questions for my sake and we continue. As for the swimming skill part, I will be able to tell quite quickly if he can actually swim at the required prerequisite level and above.

If they are not, the Scout must cover/do the prerequisite requirements to my satisfaction before we continue. I do not jump straight to the MB requirements; I want to see that the Scout is sufficiently able to complete the basic prerequisite skills. This is a safety issue, as well as what's required. When he has completed the prerequisites I will provide him with a note to the Scoutmaster that the 2nd and 1st class requirements were completed to my satisfaction during the course of doing the MB, leaving the troop with the option of signing off in the handbook, or not. Most will sign off. Some will call to talk to me first. A few have not signed off and made the Scout do it for the troop - while I question this in my mind, I take no offense.

Personally, I much prefer that the prerequisites are completed before the Scout even calls me to do the Merit Badge and usually ask when they call about doing the MB if they have already completed the 2nd and 1st class items. It's much cleaner that way and saves some time.

Sorry about the double post. For some reason the first submit click doesn't transmit, but the second try sends both.

It had been explained to me awhile back that the jump is intended to be in water well above the head. The Scout may use a "rescue jump" which would keep his head above water or barely under and begin swimming. Even in deep water the Scout might touch bottom depending on the depth available, may push off the bottom to come back to the surface if he does (straight back up) and begin swimming, but may not push off bottom in an effort to gain forward momentum. I can't say that this was an official interpretation, but it seems to be a logical and reasonable interpretation to me.

Guide to Safe Scouting; II. Aquatics Safety; Classification of Swimming Ability "The test administrator must objectively evaluate the individual performance of the test, and in so doing should keep in mind the purpose of each test element. 1. "Jump feetfirst into water over the head in depth, level off, and begin swimming. . . ." The swimmer must be able to make an abrupt entry into deep water and begin swimming without any aids. Walking in from shallow water, easing in from the edge or down a ladder, pushing off from side or bottom, or gaining forward momentum by diving do not satisfy this requirement." (emphasis added)

While not specific to 2nd or 1st Class, also read the Swimming and Lifesaving merit badge books - also goes toward intent.

Your expectations are appropriate, but give it a little time. Often, and many times depending upon the troop environment, it just takes awhile for things to click and for the newly trained boy leader to test the waters.

It is very helpful if the adult leadership provides the encouragement and environment for the boy leader to implement those things learned during leadership training. It is quite a satisfying thing to see them try things learned through the training and come away thinking "this leadership stuff really works." There may be a few stumbles along the way, but even those incidents will serve to build a stronger leader when taken in proper perspective.

Was unaware of the driving pamphlet. . . G2SS makes no mention of this rule.

Our troop has a guideline that in most situations if another adult is not in the passenger seat then one of the "senior" (older) scouts is in the passenger seat with the task assignment of keeping the rest of the Scouts in the vehicle under control and as needed to act as a navigator, so that the driver can concentrate on driving. The driver's son may ride in the passenger seat when permitted by law (air bag regs), in which case there is usually an older scout in the car also, to maintain order.

Please be careful about coming to conclusions based on this single photo. After enlargement and enhancement of the photo it appears both rescuers are wearing PFDs and helmets, and both are using throwlines from an upstream throw rescue position. The scout also appears to be wearing a PFD, but is not wearing a helmet.

While the PFDs worn by the rescuers may or may not be ideal swift water rescue gear there is really nothing seriously wrong in the photo - other than that there's a victim in the low head. Putting together the bits and pieces of multiple news accounts, I expect that there's much more going on than meets the eye in this single photo. Other accounts note that a rescue boat was used during the rescues and other photos show multiple rescuers all with reasonable gear pulling in other victims using lines.

Given the lack of really good info and as an emergency rescue technician with swiftwater rescue training / certification, I would hesitate to critique the rescue operation based on these accounts and individual photos.

That the "current pulled off" the PFD of the scout however, raises a red flag.

Here's my take:

It's a two-way street.

The Patrol is led by the PL (in charge is one way of saying it), the PLs are led by the the SPL (and ASPL), and so forth. So yes, at times the PL does carry out the directives of a higher level of leadership.

The SM serves the SPL (and PLC), the SPL serves the PLs, and the PL serves the patrol.

The PL should direct patrol activity and operations, such that they meet the objectives, goals, aims and values of the troop and the boy scout program.

The PL is similar to a low to mid level manager's position - it's not an easy job standing in the middle of a two-way street!

I liken the PLC to the knights of the round table - a cohesive group/gathering where all can function on an equal footing, youth leader and adult leader alike, with a common goal(s), but steered by the senior leader (SPL).

This may sound over-the-top to most in this forum, but in these times, geo caches in ammo boxes can occassionally cause problems. I have had to deal with two instances of geo cache boxes (ammo boxes) that were called in as "suspicious" or "possible IEDs" (improvised explosive devices). After an assessment of circumstances, available information (or lack thereof), and the suspicion-raising location of the boxes, both boxes ended up requiring a response by the bomb squad. Having gotten more educated after the first incident, for the second incident I even tried a quick internet search for a geo cache location matching where I was, but didn't come up with one.

Yes, it's a sad state of affairs, but some of us deal with this type of thing on a regular basis and try very hard to operate with an "everybody goes home" mindset.

Suggestions we made to the planters of the second box - who we were eventually able to identify:

1. use something other than an ammo box, (a see-thru container is even better), and mark it "geo cache"

2. if ammo boxes are used, paint them something other than the original color and mark it "geo cache" or something similar,

3. if placed on private property, the owner should be aware of its existence,

4. if placed on public property, such as in a park, it helps if the public entity/responsible agency knows about it (some will discourage this, some will be neutral, and there are even a few that will support the idea if they get something out of it) Somewhere I read about a local park district that placed the boxes in some of their parks with brochures about their local parks' attractions inside.

5. never, ever, hide these near government facilties, public facilties, or any other security sensitive facility without permission.

In the interest of brevity and sanity, the answer is Yes. And like your experience, it's usually the same folks every time. This is a sore subject, if I can find it in me to add more info later without going into a rant, I will.

Ed: I tend to agree with your observation and thought that initial YPT should be of the "live" variety. There are several adults in our troop that never took YPT despite my insistance that there was no excuse for them not to have had it - it's regularly offered at roundtable and various training sessions throughout the year. Since they became aware of online YPT, now they have it, but still don't really understand all of it.

The big disadvantage is that there is nobody to ask questions of, no interaction when questions or issues are brought forward by someone else, and no in-depth discussion of the principles. When taking YPT online, if do not understand something or have a question, more than likely you will not seek out the answer from another source - you will go through the process, get the card, and move on.

I fully agree that the first time should be "live" and renewal thereafter could be online or live. In fact, I have the same opinion for Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. For all though, I would concede that online is probably better than some of the read-it-straight-from-the-book sessions that I have had the distinct agony of sitting through.

Additional info from local TV station (sorry, didn't attach itself to first post)

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_169094242.html

Just an FYI

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159972,00.html

Sounds like it might be an old style umbrella tent. There were several different styles. Are the poles internal or external? The older ones were internal. My family owned several of these when I was a kid.

I don't think I can post a photo, but will try to email you direct with a couple.