Eagle707

Yes. I am a Scouter and I wear my youth religious award knot (for God and Me) with pride alongside my Eagle and Arrow of Light knots. You never "outgrow" it.

PS: No, I do not wear the "God and Me" medal. That stayed on my Cub Scout uniform.(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

Unit College Scouter Reserve exists for exactly the reason described above: it ONLY requires YPT and allows college-age leaders to serve with a unit without penalizing the unit for having "untrained" ASMs.

Hyv joulua!

This is an interesting thread for me to read because I used to be in the same lodge that SeattlePioneer would be part of now.

The lodge (T'Kope Kwiskwis) ceremonies team won the section's ceremonies competition every year between 2004 and 2010. Also, as far as the fear of disconnect from history, local tribes have written songs and dances specifically for the lodge (if I recall correctly- it has been a while). When the lodge started rebuilding their longhouse, representatives of local tribes were invited to participate in the groundbreaking. They also have been consulted when creating regalia for the ceremonies.

I'm not saying that all ceremonies teams and ceremonies are beyond reproach. I just found it ironic that SP's lodge happens to be one that is quite good at keeping the ceremonies as emulations rather than caricatures. This article is a pretty good summary:

http://tkopekwiskwis.org/longhouse/789-lodge-breaks-ground-on-longhouse(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

1) To quote you, vol_scouter: "Gotta love liberals, when their view of the world fails they simply say that was not what they were talking about." I feel like you just did the same thing here (though you are not a liberal).

If tariffs are not being discussed then why did you mention them when describing your Nordic country? You said the government "tried to keep foreign alcoholic beverages out with exorbitant taxes." That is the definition of a tariff: "a schedule of duties imposed by a government on imported or in some countries exported goods" (courtesy of m-w.com). However, when I mentioned that the United States used tariffs, it was suddenly off topic.

2) I know that we have some private fire departments and schools but I also know that the public underwrites many, many schools and "public safety" departments.

3) Since we are veering off topic, I'll go back to the main point. How do the posters here choose to define socialism? Perhaps having us define it will see how many in this debate (instead of just the general "people") know what socialism is.

Personally, I do not see us as a "socialist" nation. We have publicly funded programs (education, public safety, highways, parks, etc) but the government does not control the means of production for products. There are still many private companies in manufacturing and other sectors that are producing products for consumption. Do we have a total laissez-faire economy? Absolutely not. Are current economic policies more liberal? Yes. Does that make us socialist? No. Unfortunately, the last two tend to be used interchangeably (but incorrectly).

This false dilemma of choosing extreme positions (precluding a middle ground or even moderate steps in either direction) is a major reason we are in our current state.(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

Vol: If it makes you feel any better, there are (where I live) plenty of private healthcare clinics and stores are able to set their own hours.

Also, using tariffs to keep out foreign goods is hardly unique to Europe. The United States has done this several times throughout our history. One good example is the Smoot-Hawley tariff which was signed into law by President Hoover (who is not widely described as a socialist).

I suppose if we want to get the government completely out of our lives, we should cut Medicare, Social Security, public schools, public safety (police, fire, EMS), military spending, public parks, public roads, and the national highway system. Then we can hire private security, buy fire protection, pay tuition for primary and secondary education, and so on. Sound good?

I would say that the Nordic system is actually fairly rosy (and this is from a citizen of a Nordic country). A couple examples that come to mind:

-Higher education is fully funded but admissions rates are lower (a merit-based reward system)

-The government subsidizes all student meals for all students (exchange, part-time, immigrant, etc). At my university, that only includes a main dish, salad, and bread or, as we call it, a healthy meal that keeps the government from promoting obesity.

However, like LisaBob said, the European crisis is about poor banking policies. If all Nordic countries were doomed to fail, then why is Iceland the only one who went bankrupt? It's financial mismanagement, plain and simple. It created a bubble and the bubble popped. That's what happens when a country delivers more than it can afford to give.

Also, as far as people knowing what socialism is, do the definitions fit Merriam-Webster's definition? It seems like, a lot of the time, they do not.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Tampa: I definitely did not mean to question your parenting at all so I apologize if it came across as such.

The only other thing I could even thing to suggest is what you seem to be doing already: "If you choose not to get homework done, you're choosing to skip Scouts" (though I'd only use that option if that is the ONLY way he can get homework done that night).

Best of luck.

When I was in high school, I carried a pretty heavy homework load (I was an IB student) and there were times that I had to skip meetings because of homework. However, it was always my call whether or not I went to the troop meetings. Sometimes I went to troop meetings when I had not completed my homework and then I would finish it when I came home.

Incidentally, I did not suffer academically: I graduated with a 3.88 GPA (and an IB Diploma) and earned my Eagle rank as a high school sophomore. I'm a fan of letting the Scout make the call (with parents intervening if necessary).

Also, as a bonus, why not use this as an opportunity to have them start on the Personal Management merit badge? I'm not one of those "badge for everything" people but, if they're having trouble with their schedules, why not have them:

"Demonstrate to your merit badge counselor your understanding of time management by doing the following:

8

a. Write a "to do" list of tasks or activities, such as homework assignments, chores, and personal projects, that must be done in the coming week. List these in order of importance to you.

b. Make a seven-day calendar or schedule. Put in your set activities, such as school classes, sports practices or games, jobs or chores, and/or Scout or church or club meetings, then plan when you will do all the tasks from your "to do" list between your set activities.

c. Follow the one-week schedule you planned. Keep a daily diary or journal during each of the seven days of this week's activities, writing down when you completed each of the tasks on your "to do" list compared to when you scheduled them.

d. Review your "to do" list, one-week schedule, and diary/journal to understand when your schedule worked and when it did not work. With your merit badge counselor, discuss and understand what you learned from this requirement and what you might do differently the next time. "

It would let them work on their merit badges (Scouting) while organizing their lives (non-Scouting) with the added bonus of not having the lesson come from mom or dad!

Edited: it's late where I am so I managed to miss Tampa Turtle's reply.

While I assume you have been to a doctor to have your son diagnosed, I would urge you to go back to your doctor and look at treatment options for your son. If he is verbally abusive (and threatens to be physically abusive) it may be time to reevaluate his treatment program.

I am not a doctor but I have witnessed a few of my peers have spectacular burnouts because they wanted to avoid the mental health "stigma" that comes with treatment. I would encourage you to look at new options for your son's treatment because it sounds like his condition is contributing to the overall problem. If you can treat the root cause, the other issues may be resolved also.

That's my $1.02 (I wrote a lot).(This message has been edited by Eagle707)(This message has been edited by Eagle707)(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

I don't think you really need to look at year by year numbers. Just look at how we produced one million Eagle Scouts between 1982 and 2009. Eagle has become a program focus and I think that is reflected in the number of Eagles we are now producing. I am only a College Scouter so I cannot vouch for this but, like Perdidochas said, I think the Eagle rank has become the goal while, in the past, the goal was to be a Scout.

However, I don't think this increase in Eagles is a bad thing. I belonged to a troop that was not an Eagle mill but still turned out a substantial number of Eagle Scouts every year. Instead, our troop had an "Eagle Culture." While I was in the troop we had Eagles between the ages of 14 and 17 and, once you reached Eagle, you stayed behind to mentor the other Scouts in the troop. It's a model that worked before I crossed over, while I was in the troop, and after I aged out. It was (and still is) a well-functioning troop and delivers the Scouting program. As long as the main aims of Scouting are still met (advancement included), I'm OK with having more Eagles in our ranks.

If my fellow college students are any indication, there would be healthy demand for a "Network" section for 18-25. There are a lot of people (especially female) who would have loved to be Scouts and are appalled to find out they could have done Venturing (it's the one I bring up since it fits the demographic best). I know a lot of people would be interested in starting in an "adult only" Scout program.

Speaking of female members...

I once asked my (former) Scoutmaster (who, I might point out, fulfilled B-P's vision of a Scoutmaster to the letter) if he had been a Scout? His answer was a riddle: "What's the difference between a drinker and an alcoholic? An alcoholic belongs to a group."

He had never been a Scout because his family couldn't afford to pay for the dues and equipment but they bought him a Scout book and he went through the requirements as a boy.

When I look at how well it worked for him, I can see the possibility of a "book club" (like Beavah described) succeeding pretty well. Also, if anyone does start such a group (Varsity was an "unofficial" program once too):

1) Tell us about it!

2) You might want to check this company out:

http://www.idealemblem.com/program.html

I liked what I saw and might get a few segments for the College Scouter club at my university. Just a thought.

PS: Booksellers are way ahead of us with the "book club" idea. I heard from a friend about "The Daring Book For Girls" as an option for girls in Scouting families. I looked it up and it covers a lot of the same stuff a First Class Scout would know... and it comes with six patch designs (one for each focus area).

Scouts in my troop loved TLT (which we called JLT but that's a different story) and we did it on an annual basis (though I don't know if our trust fall/trust circle games were from BSA literature). We had the SPL help the Scoutmaster lead the activities and we had Scouts repeat the course not because they "failed" but because they liked TLT and wanted to do it again. I've heard mixed reviews about NYLT but that may be due to how my council does it. I'm not sure about that.

I think taking "This is Scouting" is an equalizer because then, no matter how many years you may or may not have been in Scouting, every leader has a common knowledge base to draw from. I gladly burned the time it took for "This is Scouting" even though I am an Eagle Scout and AoL recipient because it's good to know what it is that every leader knows.(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

I won't get into the whole Finland-Sweden debate but I will say Suunto has gotten my family through two generations of Scouting. The compass I have now has given me 10 years of service and still works as well as ever.

They're a little pricey but they're as good as they come:

http://www.rei.com/product/727086/suunto-a-10-compass

Also, you could use this as a lesson for your Scouts: "A Scout is Thrifty" doesn't mean we should be afraid to buy something that's worth the price!

"Whenever any question arises pertaining to the suitability of "young adults" to serve as Scouters, several "young adults" regularly pipe up listing out their qualifications."

That statement is correct but it still leaves me with one question: why is listing our qualifications suddenly a negative quality?

We do indeed list our qualifications because that is exactly what older adults teach us to do. We are told if we can show our qualifications, we might be taken seriously. I don't think there's any excuse to generalize about "young adults" when you are considering potential leaders.

So let me ask you this: were you a "good" or "bad" 18 year-old EMT? Were you the exception to the rule or were you one of the bad driving, rude, impulsive EMTs you described? If you consider yourself the exception, then I am not sure why you are suggesting that we initially mistrust all college-age Scouters.

If you are really concerned about the behavior of a potential adult leader, feel free to interview him or her. You could also ask for additional references as you try to get a feel for how reliable the person actually is. However, I feel like most of the "typical" young men (the impulsive ones) will not have the drive to stay involved in Scouting and will drop out quickly.

I have been told by several Eagle Scouts that they have no interest in staying involved with the BSA and THEY are the ones who are living out the stereotypical college experience (booze, etc). Those who ARE still active in Scouting also have positions in their university as RAs, TAs, and other positions of responsibility. These are not people who are in Scouting to hold on to childhood. Instead, these are people who are servant leaders and who are willing to be trained to become better at their jobs.

There is a reason the BSA only allows 18-21 year-olds to register as assistant leaders: so they can learn under a mentor before taking on the "major" adult roles in a unit. To deny students the opportunity to be mentored on the grounds that they are inexperienced is foolish.

Whether McQueary is an Eagle is irrelevant. If you want to indict Eagle Scouts based on the actions of one person, I'll save you the trouble of searching: Russell Henderson was an Eagle Scout. Russell Henderson was also one of the murderers of Matthew Shepard (I'm not going to describe the brutal murder but you are welcome to research the specifics). If you want to indict Eagles, here's your guy. He's as nasty an Eagle Scout as you will find.

Does that make all two million plus of us suspect? Absolutely not. As Sherm mentioned, some of the best examples of the Eagle rank (and/or the qualities associated with it) have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country. For every disgrace to the rank, there are many, many more who bring honor to it.

If you want to actually keep a productive discussion going, respond to the questions about young professionals (they've been posed by a few people now). Alternately, explain to me how I made the wrong decision in interrupting my daily routine to splint an injured woman's dislocated knee or by intervening in a bullying situation.

I know from reading your past posts that you carry a chip about not being a Scout. Now I am wondering if your desire to avoid these former Eagles and young Scouters stems from the fact that you were not one yourself. Perhaps it could be a mishandled jealousy?

I am trying to come up with reasons that you would attempt to compare me and my fellow College Scouters (not all of whom are Eagles or even male, by the way) to an accessory to child molestation but I am running out of ideas. Perhaps you could enlighten us with an honest explanation rather than offensive and baseless attacks.(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

Eng61: We agree that the situation was handled poorly. However, I'm also going to agree with Moose-Blacksmith: condemning a group based on the actions of a few is grossly negligent. If we turned this around we could say that, in the interest of youth safety, we should not allow anyone over the age of 40 to volunteer with the Boy Scouts since we have seen cases of 40 year-olds molesting Scouts.

You are using the graduate student as evidence that college students are not worthy of serving as leaders. However, it looks like you are giving the "adults" a free pass both in this scandal and in Scouting. We have a phrase for this: age discrimination.

If you honestly believe young Scouters are mostly interested in the program because they want to molest children, or you think they are too young to serve as leaders, you are free to believe these things. Just be willing to state them openly and without having to invent reasons for your prejudices.

I am a 20 year old College Scouter (and Eagle Scout) and have been in Scouting for literally 75% of my life. The first thing I did in my new district as an 18 year old Scouter was go with my OA Adviser to a neighboring troop and intervene in a bullying case that was related to the OA- this happened a matter of days after it came to light. As a 19 year old Eagle Scout, I had to listen to an older victim's screams of pain as I splinted her dislocated knee and did it well enough that she was able to be taken to the hospital. As a 20 year old lifeguard, I saved a child's life this past summer. Do you see a pattern? The pattern is reading situations and reacting appropriately

However, because you say "if I can't depend on a 28 year old grad student, I sure can't depend on an 18 or 19 year old undergrad," I must have made the wrong decisions. Apparently, I should have done exactly the opposite of my impulses and allowed the bullying to continue, ignored the girl who dislocated her knee, and allowed the child to drown. I'm assuming that is not what you meant but, according to your trust in us to do the opposite of the right thing, that seems to be what you would suggest.

If you doubt that any young people have the ability to react well in a situation, look at the lifeguards at your local pool: a lot of them are teenagers and most of them are a credit to the profession. Age is not the sole indicator of maturity.

Please explain to Moose-Blacksmith and I how we are unqualified to serve as Scouters. Dismissing Scouters simply because of their ages would be like waving off help from an EMT or a police officer because of their age: You have trained people who are more than qualified to help. I look forward to the day that you wave off the help of a police officer or an EMT who is under 30 because it will never happen. Don't assume that people under 30 make useless leaders any more than you would assume emergency workers under 30 must be worthless employees.(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

Thanks for clarifying: my understanding of the situation was incorrect. Mea culpa. With that information, this becomes completely different- if he was 28, I feel like he doesn't fit in with the age group we're discussing (I think of "college-age" for for this age as undergraduate students) and, if he actually saw this happening (I had understood he had only heard stories second-hand), his lack of action is reprehensible.

I guess I can only stand on my previous question: Why are we using this case to cast college students as suspicious when we're discussing how it was much older men who perpetrated, and covered up for, these acts of sexual abuse?

I'm not sure how the 20 year old becomes the villain here or even how it pertains to this thread: Are you saying that young college students will simply accept/overlook incidents of physical, verbal, or sexual abuse? If that is the case, that is patently untrue.

Blaming the graduate student for the actions of people three times his age is unfair. He followed his procedures and did exactly what he had been taught to do: Report to those above him and make sure it was documented. Given who he was reporting about, and the potential repercussions, he should be commended for coming forward at all and not fearing the reprisals of those above him. Yes, can be repercussions if something threatens to derail a Division I athletic department.

Let's apply the same thing to the topic at hand: If the idea of young Scouter following his instructions to the letter, without fear of alienating those older Scouters who "know all," is unappealing then I'm not sure what criteria are being used to judge "young" Scouters. Scouts are "trustworthy" and "brave" and I don't see why these become negative qualities once Scouts reach "Scouter age."(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

That's a pretty impressive group. Thanks for posting the link.

Scout/Guide clubs aren't as common in the United States but they're slowly gaining popularity and some schools even charter Venturing units. According to Mike Walton's Scoutinsignia.com, the BSA used to charter Exploring units to universities but they didn't make the switch to Venturing.

In my case, my friends and I created an informal group at our university but we're still working toward full university recognition. We volunteer for council and district events when our schedules allow and encourage Roundtable attendance.

"I'll be going from watching out for russian[sic] generals to watching out for scouters wearing devices."

Call me sanctimonious but I would encourage you to take the time you spend judging fellow Scouters and put that time into serving your unit. Your Scouts need your attention a lot more than another person's uniform does. Some Scouters with a lot of knots can be less-than-admirable but one of the worst Scouters I have ever seen did not have any square knots. It goes both ways.

If you see Scouters with several devices on their Scouter's Keys, try to learn something from them instead of condemning them. The Scouter's Key is not a "gimme" and I've learned something from every Key recipient I've encountered.

If you ever encounter a Scout whose home unit won't accept him as a leader encourage him to join his university's council as a DISTRICT/COUNCIL College Scouter (code 92 instead of 92U).

That's what I had to do when I went to university and, once I got there, I found other students in a similar situation and we now have a College Scouter group on campus. So far, my district has been more than happy to use us as volunteers (and we've had a few members asked to serve as assistant unit leaders).

Also, as far as the better rapport goes, I happened to run into my former Jamboree Scoutmaster at an event in my old council and he left me with this gem:

Scouts get along better with leaders your age than a crotchety old [rhymes with "vast herd"] like me.

It isn't the cleanest endorsement, but I've heard the sentiment from a few other Scout leaders too. I'm glad to see that so many of you would be willing to give college students the opportunity to give back to Scouting.

I remember SCOUTS in my troop doing this and, as a younger Scout, I thought that was the way things were supposed to be done. I heard "signs up" as an order instead of as "sign's up." Eventually, my troop moved away from that though, and we were better disciplined once people stopped yelling "sign's up." Boys figuring something out on their own? Who'd have thought it?

A few thoughts off the top of my head:

Buy some of the posters from ScoutStuff and put them in frames to hang in your garage. Specifically, I'm thinking about these two:

http://www.scoutstuff.org/merits-of-scouting-poster.html

http://www.scoutstuff.org/1910-2010-csatari-poster.html

There are also posters with the Scout Oath, Scout Law, and Outdoor Code.

For displaying patches (if they insist), I'd recommend a hide rack:

It looks rustic and would be perfect for a "Scout Cave."

http://boyslife.org/hobbies-projects/projects/8223/make-a-hide-rack/

Finally, maybe they could add shelves for camping equipment and come up with some way to display your uniform?

I hope these help!

I would say you definitely can wear it since the Insignia Guide allows it. As for worrying about being "in good taste," I think your fellow Scouter's view will be what you encounter 99 percent of the time. Ultimately, though, it's up to the wearer. I know some Scouters who I greatly respect wear only the knot even for Eagle Courts of Honor.

Personally, I keep my Eagle medal in the box it came in and wear it only for Eagle Courts of Honor. If you're worried about someone seeing the medal and the knot, you can pin the medal right beneath the Eagle knot and the scroll will cover part of the knot.

I'm unclear if my records followed me to my new council but my number definitely did not. I assumed that, since they needed my ID number to transfer my primary registration (still an MBC in the old council), that the number would move with me. However, my new council's registrar told me this was not the case. This clarification came only two weeks ago so, as much as I would love to see the scenario that was explained to Eagle92, I assume this is the status quo.