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  • #16

    This situation happened in my crew as well, however the adult leader was 21 and the fiance was 19. The Venturing rules are quite specific in this regard, no way no how, no matter how unrealistic they may be. So rather than having one leave and after a lengthy discussion they agreed to on crew outings not to share the same tent, and no PDA's in front of the crew. The next year they were married and she took off a year to have a baby. Now she is back and both are active as adult leaders. Personally the Venturer being considered a youth until 21 issue really needs to be re-examined by National.

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    • #17
      'fraternization the formation of peer-based, social relationships between adult and youth members is not permitted'

      When I read this, it seems to cover relationships that begin when one member is an adult and one member is a youth. The couple in question began their relationship as equals, as youth. The relationship is established. It is clearly not a relationship of an adult preying on a youth,of an older male taking advantage of a younger female, it doesn't have the power differential that raises alarm bells. My personal litmus test - I would not be concerned for my daughter unless I already had reservations about the relationship.

      The sticky issue is going to be camp staff next summer, IMO. Hard to tell how that is going to go down. That might be the reason to pull in the SE now for his interpretation.

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      • #18
        SMBradley,

        FYI, if you type "Fratenization Policy" in the search box on this page, it will bring up some older threads on this matter. Not sure how much any of those will help your decision more than what's been posted here, but give them a read just in case.

        IMHO preparing for marriage is not the same thing as "peer-based social relationships". (Even Facebook makes the distinction!) I can see a lot of benefits engaged to couples being under the magnifying glass of the crew. E.g., how does he perform as a leader in relationship to his fiance? Is the same kind of leadership expected in his marriage? How does her life in the crew inform on what she's bringing to the marriage? For some advisors, all of that may be an agrument for asking the older of the couple to sit out until they're both adults, for others it may be precisely why they took up Venturing in the first place.

        Anyway, since positions on camp staff will come into play here, I'd call your SE and ask how to best support the both of them. I'm pretty sure the answer will be, "Don't be ridiculous, keep them both registered. Give the boy an adult app for his birthday."

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        • #19
          Well the old summer camp staff problem isn't bradely's.....it depends on the CD. Our camp has a number of married couples working their some in the early 20's and some in their 60's. Far as sleeping arrangements I could careless.....Not my problem.

          bottom line is I think everything is good as long as they don't share a tent till they are married.

          I really don't thing anyone is disputing that.

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          • #20
            Why are we beating our heads against the wall trying to find a way around this? Same kind of rule applied at the Olympics, and that was with adults. It's a rule. Just deal with it. If you don't like it, write to national, and leave the SE out of it. He can't change the rule. He might agree with you, and then you can both write to national. How's that?
            BDPT00

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            • #21
              I don't think we're discussing whether they're tenting together. I think we're worried about whether they can even belong to the same unit.

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              • #22
                Yes, the question isn't can they share a tent on a campout nor is it even can they share a kiss or hold hands while on a BSA outing (they currently don't do these things at Scouting events, and aren't expecting to be able to start doing it).

                The question is will it get them into trouble if he (an adult leader) goes out to the movies on a Saturday night with someone who is a "youth member" (even though she is over 18 and legally an adult).

                Does fraternizing of two adults outside of Scouting event violate youth protection if one of them is a youth in Scouting and another is an adult?

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                • #23
                  Simple answer - married adults (BSA eyes) may share a tent. So, 18 yr old Scouters for the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs may share a tent. However, 18-20 yr old married "youth" for the Venture program may not.

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                  • #24
                    Tenting is a non-issue. Generally, youth want to be with their buddies on venturing outings. The way this young man is making his request it's clear that sleeping arrangements are no matter.

                    This is a matter of "status". These kids are worried about being crew members as adult+youth while engaged. They want to be continuously members in good standing with the BSA.

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                    • #25
                      You're right, qwazse. This is a matter of "status".

                      These two aren't worried about how this will affect them while they are at Scouting events. They don't mind having to show discretion or change their behavior at Scouting events (they are always appropriate for the program; and unless you knew them personally, you would not be able to tell they were a couple by the way the act at Scouting events). They aren't asking to tent together or for any special "couples" treatment.

                      But I do know that they are both involved in (and very passionate about) their summer jobs at our local council's summer camp, and they don't want to jeopardize there standing with the BSA because of what they do with their personal life when they aren't in uniform. If it came out to the wrong people that an adult advisor and a youth member were spotted on a date together, that could cause issues for them and their reputation and standing with the council and the BSA.

                      Would having them registered with different units solve the issue? (one would still be a BSA youth while the other a BSA adult, but they'd be on different charters).

                      What if they both registered with a troop or pack (where the line for youth/adult is 18) but they still attend events with our crew as a "guest"?

                      Is there a way these two can continue their relationship without breaching the BSA rules and without either of them having to leave Scouting (I'd hate to see either one have to take an 18+ month break from Scouting because of this).

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                      • #26
                        There is no way that BSA can enforce their BSA rules on non BSA activities.

                        As a SM do you think you will be drummed out of Scouting if you are seen talking to one of your next door neighbors kids over the fence while you are both alone, in your separate yards? Do you only allow your kids friends over if they come in pairs?

                        What might be "inappropriate" inside of Scouting, can be perfectly appropriate, and legal, outside of Scouting.

                        Tell the pair not to worry about what they do on their own time. As long as they act appropriate to their Scouting roles (adult leader - youth member) while at Scouting activities they will be fine.

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                        • #27
                          All-

                          I actually asked the pros within the Venturing Division years back.

                          Most of you gave out the rules.

                          A youth (under 21) and an adult (21 and older) can NOT be dating and still be involved with the crew. The adult would need to go.

                          Being engaged does not have ANY affect.

                          HOWEVER, if they are married, then this does NOT affect them. They would be treated like any other married couple in scouting.

                          Marriage 'trumps' this rule. Engagement does NOT.

                          Also. Our program is the Venturing program, not the Venture program. Let's use the right terms.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            emb021

                            I agree with you except for the dating part, because that is not specified in any literature, and outside of the crew activities is not even enforceable by the BSA or anyone else. I think your source was just putting his own interpretation into the mix.

                            For some of the rest of you your own outdated and puritanical interpretations are really amusing to say the least.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              "I agree with you except for the dating part, because that is not specified in any literature, and outside of the crew activities is not even enforceable by the BSA or anyone else. I think your source was just putting his own interpretation into the mix."

                              Dating is considered fraternization. Not allowed between youth & adults. This is CLEARLY stated in the venturing adult YPT training video.

                              Never said that outside crew activities could be enforced.

                              My sources were Bill Evans and Brad Harris, the 2 professions that created Venturing. I think they would understand the policies they created.

                              I asked them because a similar 'discussion' had been going on on the then existing national venturing email list. The scenario given was a couple that got married when both where between 18 & 21 (legal) and still remained in the crew. What happens when one of them is now 21 and the other under. Some were trying to apply the 'no fraternization' rule against them (the 21 adult would have to leave the crew). Response is: marriage 'trumps' that. None issue.


                              (This message has been edited by emb021)

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                              • #30
                                emb021

                                Yes and we all know what kind of "experts" they are at National, lol. Venturing has had problems with acceptance and growth from the beginning mainly because it was poorly and hastily designed by a bunch of armchair scouters at National whose primary motivation was to create a coed older teen program without regards to the scenarios we Venturing leaders encounter on a regular basis. emb021, just because these two guys wrote this program doesn't at all mean they knew what they were doing, just like the cub scout soccer, and urban scouting programs from the past that came out of National.

                                Fraternization will continue to be a problem and telling an 18-20 year old venturer they are not adults because two guys at National say so is just unrealistic and illogical. How about treating these 18-20 year olds as adults and have them along with their advisors come up with an adult solution instead of your impractical, unrealistic, and ludicrous scenario.

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