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  • #16
    Whatever you wish to call 'em, they are profoundly useless.


    • #17
      The Clause 4 thing applies to all of us. Where and how does it state that it doesn't?


      • #18
        No, it doesn't. The entire document doesn't apply to volunteers. The document itself is the binding agreement between councils and national. By-laws apply to the members of the corporation - the officers and employees. They do not apply to the customers - that's us - the volunteers. Just because you are a volunteer member of the Boy Scouts doesn't mean you are part of the corporation Boy Scouts of America. You are not. Neither am I.

        Note the people who are banned from making changes are specifically named:

        * any Scouting official or
        * local council or
        * any local executive board or committee

        Scouting officials, local councils, and local executive boards or committees are not to make alterations to the uniform. That means they cannot ask their volunteers and members to wear a different uniform or follow different guidelines than those published by national.

        It does not mean you personally have to have your patches on and in the right places under some sort of penalty.


        • #19
          Nobody's talking about any kind of penalty (Sorry ... maybe you are).
          Executive boards are volunteers. So are most council officials. Are you trying to say that all of the uniforming guidelines for Cubs and Boy Scouts are intended for professional staff? The entire document doesn't apply to volunteers. It's a binding agreement between councils and national. What is it you're saying? It makes no sense to me. (I don't know why I should be surprised by that.)


          • #20
            "I've seen..."
            "I've also seen..."

            Haven't we all.

            I've seen correct uniforming too.


            • #21
              "Here's an idea! Those who support an open BSA membership policy in regards to sexual orientation can wear rainbow striped epaulettes."

              When on camp staff in the mid-90s, we had a create-your-own-slide policy - the more creative the better. The shooting sports staff used shotgun shells, etc. One summer, I turned a necklace of rainbow rings (image: into a neckerchief slide. The rings were just the right size for the necker.


              • #22
                shortridge, I love the rings! I bet they did make a nice slide.


                • #23
                  To use BSA vernacular, one wears the appropriate shoulder loops (or tabs) on the epaulettes of the shirt to denote program level.


                  • #24
                    I've seen shoulder loops in checkered-flag pattern for sale next to the Pinewood Derby Cars at our Scout Shop.


                    • #25
                      The uniform insignia guide and the statement from the bylaws are two separate documents. They are not the same thing.

                      The statement from the bylaws exists specifically to keep local council corporations for coming up with their own uniform guidelines. They have similar bylaws about other nationally managed program elements. Councils cannot come up with their own handbooks, they cannot come up with their own wood badge guidelines, etc.

                      It has nothing to do with volunteers wearing their uniforms. It has to do only with publishing uniform specifications.

                      There ARE penalties for local councils that try to come up with their own uniform guidelines. National might remove their charter, or they could penalize them in other ways to force compliance if they felt they could benefit from the battle.

                      There are no penalties for volunteers wearing rainbow loops, dangling beads, totin' chip patches where the lodge flap goes, or jeans with their shirts.

                      I assert that when there are no consequences for failure to follow a guideline, it is merely guidance and not a rule. Rule breaking has consequences. No consequences, no rules.


                      • #26
                        "Whatever you wish to call 'em, they are profoundly useless"

                        Agree. Not needed. I think the position patches on our uniforms already indicate what division of the BSA we represent. That is good enough. The BSA is hyper-sensitive against wearing "camo" design military colors with the uniform, but they no issue with wearing epaulette/shoulder loops on the shirt that makes it looks military.


                        • #27
                          I agree entirely with the above. Useless floof.


                          • #28
                            Floof. Kinda like pant cuffs, shirt collars, neckerchief, sash, ball cap, silk-screened t-shirts, anything engraved with BSA logo, flag patch, baseball socks, sequins, contrasting thread color, colored fabric, embroidered alligator.... ALL clothing has some sort of floof.


                            • #29
                              Floof. There's a good discriptive...

                              All clothing is used for "belonging" and for "segregating" and "them vs us" and such. Everybody wears a uniform, especially teenagers, altho they may not want to admit to it.

                              College students are (were?) famous for designing uniforms to set themselves apart from others.
                              Consider this example: Bright yellow cordoroy pants or skirt, festooned with colorful designs and words to note one's college major and club memberships, thus was the Purdue "senior cords" worn . And held up for pride, jealousy and ridicule.

                              Google for an example: Purdue Senior Cords, picture.


                              • #30
                                I have always thought the loops (I've never heard them called ribbons, though I guess they are both) are unnecessary. In my time as an adult leader I have worn patches with blue backgrounds that say Den Leader and Assistant Cubmaster and one with a tan background that says Troop Committee. To me, that is more descriptive than a loop. For the youths, you can tell what they are by their neckerchiefs (Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos or anything else meaning Boy Scouts.)

                                I will say that we have come full circle with the colors. I remember that sometime during my time as a Scout, red was adopted as the color for Exploring, green for Boy Scouting and of course blue has always been the main color for Cub Scouting. Sometime between when I aged out and when my son joined Cub Scouting, the Boy Scouting and Exploring (Venturing) colors were reversed, and now both have different shades of green. (Although I still proudly wear my red loops on my uniform and plan to for the rest of my Scouting life.)

                                As for the orange loops on the New Jersey Scouts, OGE, all I can say is that this is something I have come across in (as I recall) two troops in my council: The Venture Patrol wears the orange (though I've seen them called "blaze") loops, which are really supposed to be for Varsity Scouts (of which I have never seen one in person.) As for "High Adventure Patrol", I guess that is just what that troop calls their "Venture Patrol." I don't think there is necessarily a rule against adopting different names, though they really shouldn't be wearing the orange/blaze loops. It's similar to the occasional mention I have seen in this forum of a troop here or there still having a "Leadership Corps." It isn't part of the current program, but it can't hurt anything. Our troop actually has a "Senior Patrol" consisting of the SPL, ASPLs, former SPL's who have not been made JASM's, and maybe another older Scout or two. (And in fact it is very similar to what the Leadership Corps was.) It's just a harmless tradition, I suppose. But they wear the same loops as everybody else (meaning a random and (to my mind) pointless assortment of red and green loops, depending on when they last bought a uniform shirt.)