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  • #16
    There is a very Key component of the OA quality control..... The Scoutmaster.


    The Scoutmaster needs to recommend the boys who are eligible. Sure he has the rank and the nights of camping.....But is he someone that will reflect well on the troop and scouting????

    So scoutmaster need to grow a pair and not allow the boys who are marginal scouts be elected.


    Like many things Scoutmaster can control the quality of rank advancement, merit badges.....He can influence the quality of the local summer camp by withholding a signature that is required on the application......Scoutmasters recommendation. It can be a good learning experience...


    Bottom line......If you feel a youth is marginal as a scout......Don't let him be elected. This is just like all of the horrible Eagles and First Class scouts that can't make pancakes or start a fire. Reflects on the troop Leadership involved.....Youth and Adult.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
      There is a very Key component of the OA quality control..... The Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster needs to recommend the boys who are eligible. Sure he has the rank and the nights of camping.....But is he someone that will reflect well on the troop and scouting???? So scoutmaster need to grow a pair and not allow the boys who are marginal scouts be elected. Like many things Scoutmaster can control the quality of rank advancement, merit badges.....He can influence the quality of the local summer camp by withholding a signature that is required on the application......Scoutmasters recommendation. It can be a good learning experience... Bottom line......If you feel a youth is marginal as a scout......Don't let him be elected. This is just like all of the horrible Eagles and First Class scouts that can't make pancakes or start a fire. Reflects on the troop Leadership involved.....Youth and Adult.
      So two questions:

      - What guidelines does BSA give that allow you to deny a scout who is eligible for OA election? Serious question, because I am only aware of the Guide to Advancements criteria. I assume if a scout is deemed active and in good standing he can be elected. If you have other guidelines they would be good to see.

      - For SMCs, if a scout fulfills his requirements a scoutmaster must "pass" him. I would love to hold back some of these scouts who rocket through. But if they have been signed off on their requirements or mbs there is little an scoutmaster can do, no?

      Comment


      • #18
        This has absolutely nothing to do with the guide to advancement..... I would never hold back a scout that I deem is advancing to quickly......there are other ways to slow a boy down....

        Under eligibility in the link below is says that candidate needs approval of the Scoutmaster, crew leader or varsity coach. The election team that visited us brought this to my attention and I adjusted my list of eligible youth, removing one scout.

        Our scout camp requires a Scoutmaster recommendation to become a councilor...... Same for NYLT, Jambo and various council youth staff positions.

        [URL="http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/"]http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/[/URL="http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/"]

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
          This has absolutely nothing to do with the guide to advancement..... I would never hold back a scout that I deem is advancing to quickly......there are other ways to slow a boy down.... Under eligibility in the link below is says that candidate needs approval of the Scoutmaster, crew leader or varsity coach. The election team that visited us brought this to my attention and I adjusted my list of eligible youth, removing one scout. Our scout camp requires a Scoutmaster recommendation to become a councilor...... Same for NYLT, Jambo and various council youth staff positions. [URL="http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/"]http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/[/URL="http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/"]
          I get all that. My questions was what criteria other than "I don't think he's ready because xxx" can be used? I ask because if there are no standard critera, such as are outlined in the GTA around what being "active" requires, then any scoutmaster recommendation (or denial) becomes arbitrary.

          Comment


          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            Krampus.....I can't find the reply but you said your SM as a youth only put the best scouts up for election to the OA.......You didn't know why? You blame this day and age....

            So what is so different now from back then???? Why do current leaders not hold their scouts to the same standards as back then????

            I would never feel pressured to put a scout up for election if he didn't meet the standard........

            As SM it is my right and I will do my part to improve the quality of Scouting.....

        • #20
          I agree with BD on the quality control issue. Krampus, the unit leader approves or disapproves the Scout to be nominated for an OA Election. The unit leader has no written criteria by which to make this decision: no checklist. The unit leader takes the "big" picture approach, and then makes the call. If a Scout wants to know why he didn't get nominated, he can ask for a Scoutmaster's Conference. Or, if the Scoutmaster wants to be proactive (before the OA Election), he can have a Scoutmaster's Conference with each potential candidate, and let them know his decision there. Also, another reason I've been doing it this way for years, it gives you a great opportunity to talk with the Scouts about the OA, and its expectations. I've had Scouts remove their name from nomination, because they felt they didn't have the additional time to participate. Seriously, if you're going to do a sash and dash, don't bother wasting everyone's time, including your own. It's worked for us for over 38 years.

          sst3rd

          Comment


          • TAMScout
            TAMScout commented
            Editing a comment
            I've also had scouts drop their names because they are too busy. I agree with that, when a scout makes a promise he should be prepared to keep it. One of my saddest experiences since returning to scouting was when a kid dropped off his ordeal sash to me when he turned 18. No emotional connection at all, just something to wear to courts of honor.

            My take as a scoutmaster is that if the kid doesn't have a serious problem, I'll sign them off. Most kids have good intentions. Most scouts try to live the scout law. I figure that the experience will help them be better.

        • #21
          So the lad I removed from the election.

          He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

          He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

          I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

          So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

          I can't do it.


          To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            I do enjoy myself, everyone should. I am certainly not an expert on the Patrol Method, only a student. Great to hear you are having such success, keep up the good work. Turning away youth is problem not many troops experience, certainly not ours. Once sophomore year hits, they disappear.

            With your troop now having tents and patrol boxes the only real difference in terms of gear between our troops seems to be maybe a few old Coleman stoves with missing knobs for the Old Goat Patrol, and some Dutch ovens. And of course how we transport all that gear.

            What have you seen in those trailers that offend you so much ?

          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            Search on trailers on the forum.....

            From video game systems to showers.....One troop mounted flat panels so the adults can watch the big game in theirs.......

          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah that is over the top. Never seen that before, our council has banned generators. The search function works rather poorly right now, so some other time.

            I would guess flat panels are a rare exception. The electronics ban was overlooked last year during the World Series, but from what I could tell it was just radios and smartphones. Scouting is not tailgating.

        • #22
          Yesterday you were complaining about more eagles, arrowmen and leaders all of inferior quality....

          All of the Quality control is unit level.

          So bad Eagles, who is responsible for that????? Yep the Troop or Crew that signed off on his advancement.

          Bad Leaders???? Local unit for not properly screening or training their leadership.

          Arrow men???? Local unit for letting everyone who is eligible get elected.

          So if every Troop's leadership cared enough about the program to do quality control we wouldn't have First class scouts that can't fry an egg or set up a tent. or Eagle candidates appealing to national because the troop and then district eagle board realized their mistake too late.

          Comment


          • #23
            Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
            Krampus.....I can't find the reply but you said your SM as a youth only put the best scouts up for election to the OA.......You didn't know why? You blame this day and age.... So what is so different now from back then???? Why do current leaders not hold their scouts to the same standards as back then???? I would never feel pressured to put a scout up for election if he didn't meet the standard........ As SM it is my right and I will do my part to improve the quality of Scouting.....
            I would hold them to that age-old standard if I could back it up with something concrete.

            Imagine this: Tommy is a Star scout and below average in his camping skills. He is in good standing. Attends 80% of the meetings. Has 20 days camping each year. Is not on probation nor is he a problem kid. He needs reminders to stop goofing off like most of the 11-4 year olds. Tommy does not meet the "elite" status we all remember from the OA of the past. He does meet all the requirements to be on the OA ballot. On what grounds would I hold Tommy back from the ballot?

            Comment


            • #24
              Well Krampus if your not going to improve the quality of scouting with local quality control then you simply don't have a right to complain about it.


              I would hold him back because he is marginal in his abilities. Just a national honor society doesn't admit students with c averages, I don't think the OA should either.


              It is a SM discretionary thing......you think he is marginal....Don't put him on the ballot.....If he is interested as to why, he can come ask you....It just might be the kick in the pants he needs to get going. Or he just might not be that interested in scouting.

              Bottom line
              Marginal skills
              Marginal motivation
              Marginal interest
              Marginal Maturity

              All add up to no go in my book...I withhold my recommendation as is my right to do so.....

              If your worried about being a bad guy or the boy hating you for it????? So a friend asked for an honest opinion, do you lie to him....NO, but depending on your relationship you could give him the blunt truth or you could candy coat it.....But you are honest with him.

              Why do we feel the need to send 12 and 13 year olds to the ordeal anyway????? I was 15 when I attended mine and a life scout......



              So are you going to be part of the problem or a start of the solution???

              Comment


              • Krampus
                Krampus commented
                Editing a comment
                I don't disagree with you BD but where are the guidelines that allow you to hold him back? He's going to ask "Where does it say that I need to be awesome in knot typing or how to cook bacon?" Guess what? It doesn't. So the scout (and his parents) are going to ask why Tommy cannot be in OA simply because the scoutmaster thinks he needs to hone his camping skills -- skills which were signed off on as completed already. We cannot add or subtract from any requirements for rank advancement or merit badges, that is clear. What is less clear is what justification a scoutmaster has for denying Tommy Crappycamper his shot at OA if he qualifies.

                Trust me, I get what you are saying about why and how you deny him his OA slot. My point is, what policy justification do we have for holding him back? Without a codified policy that defines what should be taken into consideration during the Scoutmaster recommendation phase then it is left to somewhat arbirary reasons.

            • #25
              So bottom line here is you want some sort of rule or measuring stick to justify to the parents that their little darling just ain't good enough to represent your troop in the OA.

              Sorry pal, there isn't one.

              The justification is in my View Tommy Crappycamper, while a member of the BSA and a first class rank scout meets two of the requirements....I, his SM, have spent countless hours camping, hiking and scouting with the young man and don't feel he is ready for the OA at this point.

              If mom and dad complain then read to them from the OA membership page

              Purpose


              As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to:
              • Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.
              • Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.
              • Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.
              • Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

              Keep complaining about the quality of the BSA and then act powerless to do anything about it.......


              The power is in our hands, but many SM's and Troop lack the backbone to use it......Scout spirit and SM recommendation.......I am guessing that the OA election and membership is an expectation in your troop???? So a boy gets his nights camping and rank he is a shu in?? It will never be that way in a troop I am SM of.


              You don't want to make Mr and Mrs Crappycamper upset....that is your right......But you have now lost the right to complain about the poor quality of the youth.

              Comment


              • Krampus
                Krampus commented
                Editing a comment
                Actually, I do need a guidline like GTA. I have parent lawyers in my troop and they will read all the BSA docs and ask me to cite where Tommy does not make it.

                I do like the idea of having our TC develop guidelines and adopting those.

              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                I think BD cited a great BSA doc that shows Tommy does not make it. "Spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units." They want an Eagle Mill troop, go find one.

            • #26
              Well you need to resign as soon as possible.....The troop committee needs to begin a search for someone the Troop Parent trust and believe in. If the parents don't believe in your leadership that means the boys probably don't either. Far as that goes why does your troop even need a SM if your going to be intimidated by a parent, lawyer or not.

              You can't run an effective program if your going to worry about Parents sueing you because little Jimmy Crappycamper didn't get nominated to the OA because Mr Evil Krampus with held his recommendation because in his opinion he isn't ready, whether it is skill or maturity, it is your opinion and your recommendation...

              .Far as that goes how can the SMC and BOR be even remotely impartial or fair......

              Your story is sad, bordering on tragic....

              I can't wait to hear the story of this young mans crappy eagle project and your troop committee is stuck with what to do...


              So it ain't so bad bein poor after all...







              Comment


              • #27
                Krampus,

                You're living a Scoutmaster's nightmare. You can't create enough guidelines to satisfy yourself and these parents. Get out while you can. The Cub Scouts have used an unofficial guideline for years: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. For crying out loud, back off or back out. You're creating problems where there are none. You obviously are not having fun as a Scout leader, and it shows. Your Scouts see this as well. The level of trust parents have in the adult leaders to provide the Scout's support for their program, should be very high. This should include your ability to make a decision about a Scout's qualifications to be approved (as the Scoutmaster) as a candidate for an Order of the Arrow Election. Trustworthy.

                sst3rd

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by sst3rd View Post
                  Krampus, You're living a Scoutmaster's nightmare. You can't create enough guidelines to satisfy yourself and these parents. Get out while you can. The Cub Scouts have used an unofficial guideline for years: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. For crying out loud, back off or back out. You're creating problems where there are none. You obviously are not having fun as a Scout leader, and it shows. Your Scouts see this as well. The level of trust parents have in the adult leaders to provide the Scout's support for their program, should be very high. This should include your ability to make a decision about a Scout's qualifications to be approved (as the Scoutmaster) as a candidate for an Order of the Arrow Election. Trustworthy. sst3rd
                  You are welcome to come to my district any time and exercise your belief that keeping it simple works. Parents here will argue anything Tommy Crappycamper is involved in. If we don't sign off on a first year scout requirement they want to know why. They read the GTA probably more than folks here and can quote it chapter and verse. If you stray outside of that they are ready to contact the district or even council directly. And this is not just my unit but pervaisive throughout. RT is essentially where scouters go to figure out how to do our job they way we know it should be done. I have lost scouts because we have tightened how requirements are checked off and the TC has asked the scouter corps to justify this change.

                  This is a cultural thing in my neck of the woods. Just try to deny Tommy something he has qualified for and see how long your my way or the highway position holds up.

                  What you have totally wrong is not that *I* am a scoutmaster's nightmare...being in this district and having to work with this cultural mentality is the nightmare. Trust me, you know not of which you speak.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    That is sad.....

                    I don't even know what to say,

                    I would go ahead and tighten up the requirements or make the boys met the requirements and let them call and leave. I just couldn't sign off to save my scouting job.

                    They understand that advancement is only one method right????


                    Do they Eagle and leave?????

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Krampus,

                      My district follows the program. I said you were living a Scoutmaster's nightmare, not that you were that nightmare. Parents should trust the Scout leaders of their son's Troop, to execute the BSA program. Your parents don't, and demand documentation for all decisions made by your Troop's adult leadership. This "culture thing" evidently is the nightmare, and your whole district operates this way. Wow, how sad. How do you have time to be a Scoutmaster, when you're too busy trying to satisfy the demands of your parents? And you're not having any fun? The stress has got to be through the roof. This isn't a Scout program. There's got to be a Troop somewhere that actually runs the BSA program. Go there, fast. I wish you the best.

                      sst3rd

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