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  • Crossover

    I'm not the Webelos den leader. Our Webelos den leader is new. Our Webelos den has one fifth grader and 8 fourth graders. We are planning to cross over our fifth grader in February. My question is: does he have to earn his arrow of light to cross over in February? If he never earns his arrow of light, does he cross over in May?

  • #2
    How close is he to earning his Arrow of Light? Can it be done by Feb? May?

    He can cross over without earning AOL as long as he meets the Boy Scout Joining Requirements (Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.)

    Just remember, once he becomes a Boy Scout, he can no longer work on Cub Scout Rank requirements, so is earning AOL important to him?

    If he never earns it, and wants to continue in Scouting, and meets the Boy Scout Joining requirement age, then he should cross over (Boys who are older than 10, or who have completed the fifth grade, can no longer join Cub Scouting).

    Comment


    • #3
      Ahh . . . The old cross-over delima.
      The person who was CM before me would hold all the boys back until everyone was ready to cross over. That would mean sometimes there would be a cross-over in February; other times not until May.
      I favored the policy that a boy could cross-over anytime he has his AOL completed. Some boys crossed over on their own, most waited for their buddies. It was done when the boys were ready and wanted to go. Boys who did not earn the AOL did not get to become boy scouts until they completed the 5th grade.

      You’ve only got one boy, so if his AOL is complete and he wants to, you could cross him over now and be done with it. However—if the AOL is not complete he waits until June.

      Comment


      • NeverAnEagle
        NeverAnEagle commented
        Editing a comment
        The OA members are supposed to be there to welcome them into the brotherhood of scouting. The ceremonies work like this: Parents present child with arrow, CM gives child patch, a group of nearly naked OA boys make an @ss of themselves, then the boys are officially Boy Scouts. The Troop has no part in this.

        Neckerchiefs are handed out at the Troops Court of Honor, Joining Ceremony, or whatever the Troop chooses to do. The Pack has no part in this. (Our Troop does a Joining Ceremony in conjunction with a COH where possible.)


        The only time the “bridge” is used is for cubs to advance in rank (Ex. Tigers become wolves, wolves become bears, etc.) Because those kids are grouped by grade and move up together in the same unit. When Weblos become Boy Scouts they are all going in different directions.

        If you are Protestant and willing to pay to have your kids in the Catholic school, they can be in the Catholic Pack, however, they cannot join the Catholic troop, because the Catholic school is only an elementary. Catholic families who do not attend the Catholic school are not allowed to join the Catholic Pack, but are expected to join the Catholic troop. Mormon families whose boys are in a Pack chartered by a school or PTA group will be pressured to join a Mormon troop, etc. Mormon boys depart at age 11 regardless of where they are in the Weblo/AOL process, so either they leave early and miss the ceremony, or they have to stick around after the ceremony until they turn 11 and end up being a den of 1 or 2, depending on which month the cross-over is held.

        Since the boys are all going different directions (15 troops to choose from in a county with a population of only 32,000) it was easier just to send them when they were ready. I know a lot of the parents appreciated it because then the younger cubs were no longer exposed to the drunken dancing of teen boys wearing only underwear and body paint.
        Last edited by NeverAnEagle; 11-15-2013, 04:08 PM.

      • dedkad
        dedkad commented
        Editing a comment
        NeverAnEagle, everything I have read says the bridge is reserved for Cub Scout to Boy Scout transition. All other ceremonies are rank advancements, not bridging.

      • NeverAnEagle
        NeverAnEagle commented
        Editing a comment
        Dedkad:
        I've never seen a bridge used for Boy Scout Cross-over, but I've only seen cross-overs for 3 of the area packs.

        I have seen a lot of strangely constructed bridges used at Blue & Gold banquets so that tigers could become wolves, etc. I used to run the FOS circuit for area Packs when I was the Cub Round Table commissioner. Every pack I visited had something the boys had to walk over to advance, though it was seldom very steady. I guess that was part of the fun.

    • #4
      Originally posted by howarthe View Post
      I'm not the Webelos den leader. Our Webelos den leader is new. Our Webelos den has one fifth grader and 8 fourth graders. We are planning to cross over our fifth grader in February. My question is: does he have to earn his arrow of light to cross over in February? If he never earns his arrow of light, does he cross over in May?
      He needs to be 11yo to cross without his AOL, and 10.5yo to cross with his AOL. Everything else is a matter of the troop accepting his application and tradition within the unit. When will he be 11yo? Has the scout and the Web leader spoken with the troop?

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        Parent and leader games be damned.

        If the boy wants to go he can be a guest of the troop until he is of age.

        Seriously what is in the best interest of the lad.

    • #5
      Did the requirement for AOL and 10 yo recently change from being AOL and 10.5?? Or is there something in this rule I am not seeing.. My other thread the AOL & 10.5 yo was sited. From this one I got from ADCinNC the AOL and 10 yo in what looked like a quote of the rule book.. I went to Scouting.org and got the official statement.. Matches what ADCinNC quoted.


      Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.
      So did the rule change, recently.. Too many of you have it in your heads that it's 10 1/2.

      updated : AKDenleader is having problems sleeping too I guess. I posted something similar on my other thread related to this joining issue.. They answered that the book has it stated differently.

      "Be active in your Web den for at least 6 months since completing the fourth grade (or at least 6 months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge. "
      "

      Hmmm... so is the scouting.org website wrong, or is this so new a change that the books haven't caught up to the change on the website? Sounds like a clarification by my DE is in order.
      Last edited by moosetracker; 11-14-2013, 01:49 AM.

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        Your confusing an Award requirement verses a Joining requirement for two different organizations.

        To Earn the AOL you have to be 10.5

        to join Boy Scouts you have to be at least 10 with AOL.

      • King Ding Dong
        King Ding Dong commented
        Editing a comment
        I used to insist AOL was 10 1/2, but now I am confused. My son was 9 graduating 4th and turned 10 in sept of 5th grade. According to this he could have earned AOL around Dec 1 and would not have been 10 1/2. My old school district cutoff for kindergarten was 5 by oct 15th, some could have it even later I suppose.

        Some schools graduate a middle of May so mid Nov. may be possible.

        4.1.1.9 of 2013 GTA

        The Arrow of Light Award may be completed only while the following four conditions are met: (1) The Webelos Scout has been registered and active for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or since turning 10 years old; (2) he is still registered in a pack or as a Lone Cub Scout; (3) he has not yet joined a troop; and (4) he has either not yet graduated from the fifth grade or has not yet turned 11, whichever is the latter.
        Last edited by King Ding Dong; 11-14-2013, 08:25 AM.

      • dedkad
        dedkad commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks for the clarification KDD. After reading a lot of these threads recently, I was starting to freak that my 11 year old 5th grader wouldn't be able to earn his AOL because he was too old and needs to move up to Boy Scouts immediately. I even called our District office to ask. They didn't know off the top of their heads, which made me even more nervous. I am relieved. It would have been a shame to lose what he has been working on for over a year as a Web I and Web II.

    • #6
      I think ADC has it nailed.


      Besides, what is that money grubbing, number counting, ghost unit creating professional going to tell you. Oh by the way, our new DE is the absolute worst of the 5 we have had.

      Comment


      • #7
        not sure what a money grubbing ghost unit creating professional who doesn't like some DE has to do with the train of thought.. Are you accusing my units of having a ghost unit that a DE created.. Truly we do not, we are just not very healthy at the minute, show promise of things changing, but just trying to hold things together until that wave comes.
        Ok, let me through one more thought into the mix.. I am looking at the two.. And seeing that the book requirement is the requirement in order to earn the AOL. The other requirement is the Boy scout joining requirement.. So can I get a boy his AOL before he is 10.5 yo or is 6 months into his 5th grade schooling, unless he started school very very young, or skipped a grade?
        I can't get him in at 10 unless he earns the AOL, He can't earn the AOL until he is 10.5 or 6 mths into 5th grade.. It almost makes it seem like the Benefit of earning AOL listed on the Boy Scout application is almost an impossible accomplishment.

        Comment


        • perdidochas
          perdidochas commented
          Editing a comment
          6 months into Fifth grade, actually means 6 months after finishing the first grade. IIRC, BSA treats June 1 as the beginning of a grade. So basically, December.

        • dedkad
          dedkad commented
          Editing a comment
          My son turned 11 in October and is in the 5th grade, but he is still in Cub Scouts. For him, there is no benefit to earning AOL as it relates to joining Boy Scouts other than it is a pretty cool honor to earn. Oh wait, there is one benefit for him, he can wear his AOL badge on his Boy Scout uniform. He's been in Cub Scouts since Tiger, and AOL has always been his goal for Cub Scouts. Almost every other boy in his den will also be 11 by the time they earn their AOL. As schools continue to push back the age for starting school to being 5 in September, you are going to see a lot more 11 year old 5th graders. Seems like the age requirement for Boy Scouts isn't keeping up with the times. Do troops really want a bunch of 5h graders joining their troop in September, or is it better to wait until mid-year when they've had a chance to grow and mature even more?

      • #8
        Depends on his age. He can cross over at age 11, AOL or not. If he has AOL he can cross over at roughly 10 1/2
        Last edited by perdidochas; 11-15-2013, 12:50 PM.

        Comment


        • #9
          We make too big of an issue of crossing-over. Great hoopla is made out of it. Yet with the hoopla around AOL it often is counter to cross-over. "You're done with scouting you can quit.

          What about the Boy Scout that shows up and he doesn't have an AOL patch on his shirt or even a shirt, or Religious knot, or anything else for that matter because he was never a Cub Scout? What does he see going on around him? All he's done is sign an application form and showed up. Is there a ceremony for him to get a necker and book? or is he to just go pick one up at the scout office when he buys a shirt and pants? When he sits around his first campfire, what can he contribute to the discussion?

          When I was doing the part of my WB ticket on Web -> Scouts transition, the boy's got their AOL at the Pack meeting following completion of their work. No big deal. Once they turned 10.5 years old, they could simply quit coming to den meetings and start going to troop meetings. No flair, no ceremony, just a smooth transition into the program. They were never told they were at the end of anything, there was no start, just a change of venue and life continued on.

          New kid with no scouting experience joins up? Well, he comes in and starts a process just like he did to find a troop he liked. He is not assigned a patrol, he has the opportunity to "visit" with each patrol and then upon mutual consent, simply hangs out with his new buddies. There is NO ceremony for him to point out that he didn't do Cub Scouts!

          I can see a lot of self-esteem building going on in Cub Scout bling acquisition, but if that process doesn't mature into self-respect building in Scouting, one ends up with the hoopla Eagle Scout problems mentioned in many threads.

          I find that when scouts come in with no Cub background, they tend to develop self-respect quicker because they don't have all that self-esteem seeking baggage to drag along.

          Stosh
          Last edited by jblake47; 11-14-2013, 09:02 AM.

          Comment


          • blw2
            blw2 commented
            Editing a comment
            As a parent and scouter in the middle of cubs, I see merit in your comments Stosh.
            Our pack tends to make B&G totally a celebration of the Webelos 2 boys.
            What I have observed so far though, is that the bling doesn't seem to overly impress most boys like it probably once did. Tigers maybe a little but from then on, not so much. It almost seems more like a shoulder shrug as they look at the award they were just handed, and a mental voice saying.... uh, another stupid patch.... whatever.....
            Personally, I would rather see a nice ceremony for those boys that earned the AOL. maybe a nice slideshow of the den's years in cubs.... a few words summarizing what we hope they all take away from cubs, and leave it at that.
            Let the troops do a welcoming ceremony if they want, for those boys joining.... even if they weren't cubs.

          • jblake47
            jblake47 commented
            Editing a comment
            I agree. As a matter of fact, my Web I's earned AOL at the end of their first year and then they had a year of Web II's to have fun and get ready for Boy Scouts. To them AOL was the last requirement to fulfill and then they could have fun! None of my boys saw AOL as the end of Cubbing, it was just an award for the work done up to that point. Now that the "requirements" were done, focus could shift over to Boy Scouts and a whole year of getting ready for it, and in my case, starting on the TF requirements so that the first few months of Boy Scouts wouldn't be overwhelming.

            Stosh

          • NeverAnEagle
            NeverAnEagle commented
            Editing a comment
            Stosh--

            Our troop holds a Joining Ceremony for all new scouts. Once they finish the joining requirements we make a big deal of giving them their scout patch and neckerchief.

        • #10
          There have been some changes in the age requirements. IMHO it gets confusing. But I admit I'm glad of grade based rule since Cub Scouts is mostly grade based.. Oldest son is in 5th grade, but with a September Bday. If he had to wait 6 months since turning 10, he would have to wait until March instead of December 1 before Crossing Over, He's already chomping at the bit to be a Boy Scout. Let's face it, when your son wants his own camping gear for his birthday and Christmas presents, you may have a Scouting addict.

          For AOL, MacScouter.com states here http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/arrowoflight.asp that

          1) Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

          That is also stated on Scouting.org here http://www.scouting.org/filestore/Cu...etingPlans.pdf

          MacScouter.com states here http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank1.asp that the joing requirements are

          1) Meet age requirements: Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

          It's the same requirements in the 12th ed. BSHB on page17.

          Comment


          • #11
            In regards to non-Cubs joining a troop and hoopla, there use to be in the form of a Scout Investiture Ceremony that was in the older Scoutijng literature.. My troop had one, especially since we didn't have a feeder pack until the last year I was a youth, That was when we presented the troop necker, woogle, and troop totem. Sometimes, but not always (depended upon supplies), they also got their Scout rank.

            I vividly remember the confusion at one Pack AOL/Crossover we were invited. The Host troop and us both presented troop neckerchiefs as part of the Crossover Ceremony to the new Scouts. But after the ceremony we collected our neckers back, to the dismay of parents and new Scouts. Had to explain to them that, Yes they are now Boy Scouts and are part of the troop, but every Scout gets their troop necker when they go through OUR induction ceremony, as we have done it for 20+ years.

            At the end of their first troop meeting, instead of the normal closing ceremony, we did their induction ceremony. Last I heard, the troop is still doing it that way.

            OK now to type of the ceremony script for the troop oldest is joining because they are relatively new and don't have anything like it but wat it.

            Comment


            • jblake47
              jblake47 commented
              Editing a comment
              We had an awkward process for the two packs in town and the two troops.

              The Cubs had their AOL ceremony at the Blue Gold. Then at the end they had the "crossover" ceremony. ALL the boys crossed over and either went to one of the two troops where they were presented a necker and book, or they simply went back and sat with their parents. Nothing like a public ceremony to embarrass the boys who were quitting Scouting.

              The flack we got was that the SM of the other troop presented neckers and book and our troop the PL that was welcoming the boy did the necker/book routine. Adults from our troop were not participant in the ceremony. We even had one parent come back over to our boys and give the necker/book back because they didn't want their boy associated with a troop where the adults wouldn't even participate in the ceremony. Obviously they missed the point. My ASM's comment was rather appropriate. "Well, we dodged that bullet."

              Boy-led, or some variation thereof is the goal most troops strive for, yet it is the most misunderstood concept for anyone coming out of the Cub, school or church backgrounds for youth of this age. If an adult isn't running everything, it can't be good for their little boy.

              Stosh

            • Sentinel947
              Sentinel947 commented
              Editing a comment
              Blake, I'd have to agree with your ASM, dodged a bullet indeed!

            • moosetracker
              moosetracker commented
              Editing a comment
              Our troop tried something one year that was a flop, and didn't do it again. Normally the cubs crossing over don't earn the neckerchiefs until they earned the Scout patch. (We wanted to make sure they showed up to a few meetings before handing it out.) But, one year they decided that the older boy would mentor one incoming and in doing so at the crossover hand them their personal neckerchief and when they had successfully worked with them to earn the Scout patch the boy would get his own neckerchief and the older Scout would get his back.. Well, some crossovers took off with the neckerchief never to join, or lost the neckerchief, or stained it in some way or whatever.. Before the first neckerchief the troop gave you, then you bought any replacements you needed.. Well the new scouts didn't understand they didn't get a free neckerchief if the one they lost or damaged was someone else's, the troop hadn't given them THEIR neckerchief yet.. Then you couldn't punish the older scout and force him to buy a new one based on the actions of the younger scout, when they were just following this cockamamie idea.. It wasn't their fault the new scout did not feel responsibility to take care of an item that they were borrowing..

          • #12
            10.5 is still being bantered about. I think that is the case with most boys but can we agree that is not always the case ? A boy can graduate 4th grade and still be 9 and earn AOL before he is 10.5 ?

            Comment


            • Basementdweller
              Basementdweller commented
              Editing a comment
              Schools have different entry birthday cut offs. In our school district they cut off early so the boys are older. Sounds like your has a really late cut off date.

              whether or not the lad belongs in the Pack or the Troop depends on the him, not some rule in a book. I have met 14 year olds who belong in a wolf den and met a couple of bears who would make great tenderfoot scouts.

          • #13
            KDD, I agree, also with Basement if I'm reading him correctly. To me it's ok to just get to know the boy well and let him do what is appropriate for him as an individual rather than some pigeon-hole age or other status. Then fill out the paperwork and send it up the pipe. If it's approved your good, if not then you wait until it can be approved. Don't try to force all the boys to the same model.

            When I was CM, we tried to cross over in February or March and the den leaders knew this. Reason was to allow the boys who were champing at the bit to become scouts to have that chance as soon as possible. The others would merely join the troop after they turned 11, either that or else move on to soccer or some other sport.

            Comment


            • #14
              Once the Scout meets the requirements of joining a Troop, he can crossover. It can be in Feb or May or whenever. The sooner the better since he needs to get camping with the Troop so he understands what is required for Camporee and Summercamp and make a lot new friends.

              There, that was simple. Carry on.

              Comment

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