Another Scout Advancement Issue ...

[OneHour 11]

A spinoff of Vrooman's problem ... In our troop, we have a Life Scout who does not even know how to swim much less dog paddling. How he got passed Second and First Class requirements ... I don't know. His book was signed off by an ASM and by the SM both of who are no longer with the troop. The BOR apparently missed it too (twice!). He has just gotten his Life. I asked our current SM about it and he indicated to me that it was beyond his control. Life Scout requirements do not contain swimming and the scout completed all of the Life requirements. What was done before he can not take back and it is not the scout's fault. I agreed with him. Here is the dilemma ... I cannot see how a scout who does not know how to swim gets the Eagle award. Don't get me wrong. This scout is a very good scout. He gets all of his requirements done and did them well ... apparently all but the swimming requirements. He does not go to summer camp. He attends only winter camps! As I piece it all together, I finally realized that he has been avoiding any water activity. We only found this out during our cannoe training where everyone in the troop has to go through. He was visibley worried on the day of the training. After he got into the deep end to start the swim test, he started to dog paddle just to stay afloat and that was all that he could do.

 

Swimming merit badge is optional eagle required mb .. . so again he can side-step it if he chooses by doing either hiking or cycling. I had a talk with him and his father, asking them to see if he can get swimming lessons. His father got upset with me for even suggesting it. I told his father that, plain and simple, his son does not know how to swim and he will be limited to certain water activities. It is also for his own safety if he learn how to.

 

My question is that what if anything that we could do about this situation?

 

Thanks,

 

1Hour

 

ps: Aquaphobic is not a problem! I have seen him at the local pool horsing around ... in the shallow end!(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[SemperParatus 1]

From an advancement standpoint...nothing. The sign-off has already occurred and you can't go back after the BOR.

 

From a skill development standpoint...you can offer to provide personal and discreet instruction to help this boy learn to swim (if he wants it). Making this 'secret' public will likely embarass this boy and that does not need to happen.

[evmori 11]

Interesting. How old is this kid?

 

Have you looked at the requirements for hiking & cycling? They are no walk in the park. Swimming is the "easiest" of the three.

 

I'm not sure there is anything you can do. If he is trustworthy, you should be able to ask him about this & get a truthful answer. If you don't get a truthful answer then you have a Scout Spirit issue. Regardless of what happens, this doesn't sound like it's gonna be pretty.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter 24]

"If he is trustworthy, you should be able to ask him about this & get a truthful answer."

 

Why would you even ask him, and what difference does it make? If he says he did no swimming for the rank requirements, you will do what?

 

If he says he did swim for the rank requirements, you will do what?

[OneHour 11]

Ed ... he is 13 almost 14. I do believe that he is very capable (physically) of doing either the cycling or the hiking. He plays basketball and in very good shape in terms of being an athlete.

 

Semp ... this issue is only known amongst the scoutmasters who conducted/assisted the swim test that day and the newly chosen CC who was at the swim test. No one else knows about it and we plan to keep it as such ... between the scout and the SM.

 

FScouter ... yep ... the SM and I are aware of the fact that it's water under the bridge. All that we can do is to move forward.

 

1Hour

 

ps: a side question ... for some reason our SM thinks that if the boy can accomplish 1st Class Swimming requirements, the 2nd Class Swimming requirements can be automatically signed off. Yes, 2nd Class requirements is a subset of the 1st Class requirements, but can "double-dipping" be allowed?(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[evmori 11]

"If he is trustworthy, you should be able to ask him about this & get a truthful answer."

Why would you even ask him, and what difference does it make? If he says he did no swimming for the rank requirements, you will do what? If he says he did swim for the rank requirements, you will do what?

 

Why would you ask him? His inability to swim at the canoe training?

 

What would you do if he says no? Remind him a Scout is trustworthy & help him honestly complete those requirements.

 

What would you do if he says yes? Then you have a Scout Spirit issue. Living the Oath & Law in your everyday life.

 

OneHour,

He might be physically fit but cycling requires more than riding your bike to Scout meetings & hiking requires more than walking to Scout meetings.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OneHour 11]

Ed ... as I have pointed out ... this young man will complete all requirements as listed (apparently with the exception of swimming in this case).

[LPC_Thumper 10]

What do you do now? It's a matter of safety... come on guys you're sharper than this...

 

What do we do now? Simple, whenever there's an event that is going to require water exposure aren't you supposed to have swim checks? I can't quote chapter and verse from G2SS, but isn't that what Safety Afloat says? Let's see, if you don't pass swim check, what do you do?

 

Now that you've pointed this out to the young man, you hold to the rule. No pass the swim test, no canoeing, no sailing, no whatever. You don't run him up the flag pole, you just let him know when the swim checks are and that to go on the trip you must pass a swim check.

 

Come on, when you get to camp what happens that first day? They look at your boy's shirts, and say, "Oh 1st Class or higher no swim check for you!" Or do they say "1st day of camp, here's the water front, better get your suit!"

 

I'm trying for a smile here, if instead you read my words as "ringing from the rooftops" sorry... This doesn't have to be a bad thing, just hide behind the program and do your thing, it's going to be fine.

[FScouter 24]

"This doesn't have to be a bad thing, just hide behind the program and do your thing, it's going to be fine."

 

Hiding?

 

The lamentation was that a Life scout is working on the Eagle rank and his last swim check showed all he can do is dog paddle. OneHour questions whether he can earn Eagle. Ed wants to question him to see if he is trustworthy.

 

Should the boy be kicked back to Tenderfoot? What would you do?

[OneHour 11]

"Come on, when you get to camp what happens that first day? They look at your boy's shirts, and say, "Oh 1st Class or higher no swim check for you!" Or do they say "1st day of camp, here's the water front, better get your suit!"

 

Yes, yes ... but he is avoiding summer camps. Yes, so far we have limited his water activities to those for non-swimmer as defined in G2SS. No, we're not running him up the flagpole for the purpose of making an example. My original question was "... what if anything that we could do about this situation" when he does get to the Eagle SM and BOR? So far ... the answer is ... nothing! I guess that I can live with the fact that there may be an Eagle scout who does not know how to swim. Yes ... don't add requirements and don't take away requirements.

 

The only bad things is that previous SM and ASM did not follow the program.

 

"just hide behind the program and do your thing, it's going to be fine.

 

Huh? Hiding? Why? This is the same ideal that the previous SM was going for ... he would say something along the line "ASMs, you guys just do your things and it will be fine!" As a matter of fact at one of the swim test that I was helping out, I pointed it to him that one of the boys kept on stopping to rest and he rated the boy as swimmer. I objected and stated the requirements, namely that the 100 yards must be completed in one swim without stops and include at least one sharp turn . He said, "What do you care? I'm signing it the requirements." In cases like that, should I just "hide behind the program and do [my] thing, it's going to be fine?"

 

Not in my books! G2SS, SM handbook, and the scout handbook that is.

 

I'm sorry. I can't help but to read your message as "ringing from the rooftops," although ... not loudly .

 

1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[kittle 10]

evmori,

 

swimmingmwould be the hardest of the three for me, since I ca't swaim and am deathly scared to have water over or in my face. Unlike the kid in question, I don't (and have never) horsed around even in the shallow end. My friends have always respected me enough to not puch it.

 

 

[SemperParatus 1]

OneHour,

 

Could not the possibility exist that this scout did pass the swim test 2-3 years ago (after much effort and anxiety) and the SMs at that time signed him off appropriately and since then the scout has simply chosen not to practice the skill because he does not like to swim?

 

Example. In college I was competitive bike racer, riding in century races up and down the east coast. At the age of 22 I was involved in a very serious accident that nearly cost me my life. I have not gotten on a bike since. I can ride a bike, I just choose not to. If there was a bike riding test at summercamp, I would decline to participate.

 

Just because this scout is not demonstrating swimming skills now is not necessarily a reason to conclude that he has never demonstrated them. Perhaps the father's anger was the result of reminding him of the torture that they experienced in getting this boy to finally pass the test one time.

 

I would agree that if he can't pass the swim test now that his water activities should be limited in accordance with Safe Swim Defense/G2SS. However, this should have no bearing on whether or not he is 'Eagle-qualified.'

 

Let it go.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[evmori 11]

kittel,

And I applaud you for being up front about it!

 

Semper,

I doubt if he forgot the skill. I would bet he never learned the skill. I have taught swimming to many Cub Scouts & other youth & I can tell you that when someone learns the proper strokes, they never doggy paddle again. Doggy paddling is a lot of work compared to using the proper stroke.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OneHour 11]

Semp .. I would whole-heartedly agree with you, but I know this young man since he was a tiger. When we did the Aquanaut pin, his father has already told me at the time that he has not taken any swimming lessons.

 

When they did the swim test (which this young man was in attendance), I wasn't. Yes, he could have passed the test and has not swum since; however, like riding a bicycle, he would have known the basic strokes and kicks. He didn't demonstrate any of it. He dog-paddled! I talked to him afterward and he told me that he has not taken a swimming lesson since we last talked as a Webelos. His father was angry because I suggested the swimming lesson. I guess that to his father it also has to do with questioning the validity of the completion of the requirements. Yes ... he is a father who wants that Eagle ranking for his son! That's the story that was told on another thread already. I would agree with you if he is afraid to get into the water because of some horrific experience, but I do see this young man at the local pool from time to time and at swimming b-day parties. Even if he would come up and ask me to teach him, I would love to.

 

You're correct. At this stage of the game, "this should have no bearing on whether or not he is 'Eagle-qualified.'" I guess that I'm in the camp that the Eagle award is a honor that should be preserved for those who truly earned it. Ooooh ... that's another can of worms!

 

ps: I'm not suggesting that the scout is not trustworthy. I'm merely suggesting that the fault lies in the adults who allowed it through (that's another story).

 

pps: Knowing how to swim is something that I take seriously. Maybe the fact that I almost drown when I was a boy because I did not know how to swim has something to do with it, but at the very minimum, every kid should know how to swim (especially an Eagle scout).

 

ppps: .... Letting it go ... (This message has been edited by OneHour)

[SemperParatus 1]

I've never known a scout (or his parent) turn down a sincere offer to help them develop a scouting skill. Disconnect this from advancement issues, approach the scout (and his dad, since he may be part of the obstacle) and offer to help him improve his water skills so that he can start participating in some of the ultra-cool trips that are available to him now that he has reached the age for higher adventure. No mention of possible advancement improprieties in the past, just a sincere desire to help this scout and expand the opportunities for adventure that can be his. If he declines, you've done your part.