Old boys giving young boys the Patrol Leader job

[Beavah 205]

Yah, in da previous thread Eagle732 commented

 

Most of the time it seems like the new boy gets the PL job.

 

A few other folks have been seeing this in their units it seems. So this is a thread for suggestions on how to address the "give it to the younger kid, make him do the work" thing with Patrol Leaders.

 

What I'd suggest is that yeh first look to see what da PL job is like in the troop. Is it really a leadership role with that kind of recognition? Or is it more of a task-management/busywork role that handles grunt tasks like duty rosters and gear organization and such? I think when the PL job is real leadership and recognized as that, the older boys step up. They want that recognition and "power." But not if da adults have the power and the PL is only a grunt worker. In that case, the older fellows make the younger guy do it, and then they set up their own sorta counter-cultural leadership clique of cool guys who sit back.

 

Takes some effort to break that, eh? Yeh have to get da adults to change the way they look at things, and be willing to up the challenge of troop outings so that yeh really need those older boys to lead, and they feel the need. Scary for adults.

 

I think yeh also need to think a bit about how yeh work with da PLC. Yeh want da PLC to be the older "cool" crowd, eh? That means yeh also have to think about some ways in which they get special treatment and yeh treat 'em like fellow adults. Stayin' up later 'round the campfire while the others (including non-PLC older scouts) go to bed, pizza at meetings, an occasional night on the town maybe checkin' out a new activity or outdoor movie.

 

Genuinely challenging and fun TLT experiences should be a part of this, too, eh? "We're the guys who do the hard stuff" is what yeh want to build in their minds. And guys that do the hard stuff lead others.

 

That's my take. Let's hear some other ideas!

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge 184]

Someone in another thread (I can't find it at the moment) recently said that the PL is the highest job in the troop. I really think that's the best way to look at things and approach troop structure - not as a troop, but a group of patrols that unite around certain themes and goals and missions. More the Confederacy than the Union, I suppose.

 

In a troop without true patrols, or with very weak patrols that disintegrate and get melded into some sort of cobbled-together group for camporees and competitions, the SPL is going to be the top dog, effectively the patrol leader for the entire troop. But in the best-case scenario, I don't really see a need for an SPL. Thus, the PL's job is both the functional and perceived top position in the troop.

[BrentAllen 10]

Beavah,

I agree with most of what you say, but the only problem I see with the older boys staying in the PL position for a long time is they get burned out, and the younger boys never get the chance to grow into leaders. That being said, I do believe the PL is the most important position in the Troop. As BP said, the patrol is the character school for the individual.

 

We had a situation back in Sept. where one of our older boys, who had been PL since he joined Boy Scouts in March, 2007 (five 6-month terms as PL), ran for SPL and lost. I think one of the reasons he lost was the boys in his patrol didn't want him to leave, and they voted against him. This boy decided not to run for PL again, either because of sour grapes or he was tired of the same position, which is what he claimed. The patrol elected another boy PL, who was one year younger. I felt if I left the older boy in that patrol, the new PL would never have a chance to lead - the boys would always turn to older boy for his approval. I discussed the issue with the SPL and we decided to offer the older boy the position of TG/QM/INSTR. He gladly accepted, and things are working out, as we all move up the learning curve.

 

After much consideration and discussion with experienced leaders, we are working on forming a JLC with the older boys who have served as PL. This will be our SPL, ASPL, QM, Scribe, TGs, Instructors and others, if we ever get that big. Their job is to be resources for the PLs to call on, and to handle some of the non-patrol work that adults some times end up doing (QM work, for example). The plan is to only let boys who have served as PL move up into the JLC, which will hopefully encourage the older boys in a patrol to want to run for PL, and work to earn the respect of the members of the patrol so they will elect them. This may have to be modified as we go, but I certainly don't want the older boy counter-culture clique you mention.

 

I also strongly agree with the special treatment for the PLC/JLC. Give them the responsibility and work of running the Troop, but also some reward, as you mentioned, for carrying the load.

[Eagle92 110]

Brent,

Like the idea of the JLC, or as we called it back in the day the Leadership Corps, and giving them some perks to reward them for the extra responsibility.

 

Why does it seem that we keep returning to things that have already been done in the past?

[Mike F 10]

Once upon a time in the troop I serve, everything was run from the top and the PL job was little more than making phone calls and leading a discussion on campout menus. (I.e., Troop Method) It was pretty common for the older boys to dodge the work.

 

We started focusing more on patrol competitions and independent patrol activities on campouts and things changed a lot. They dont have any extra perks in the job, but we spend a lot more time coaching/training them and they know they are key members of the leadership team. The job now means something and success is important to them, so there is stiff competition for the leadership job. Guys who prove themselves dependable in the patrol and have a good attitude get elected. This is not always the oldest. Since there are no term limits, good leaders tend to get elected to successive terms until they get elected/selected for Senior Staff (SPL/ASPL).

 

A couple of times I have quietly recommended a PL not run for re-election after serving multiple terms in order to give the opportunity to one of the older boys who had never been elected to step up and grow. In both cases it was a mistake. I will never meddle in patrol leadership again. There have been other cases where a scout felt like he was trapped behind a good leader and would never get his chance. Our advice has been to work hard, demonstrate good attitude/skills, and prove to the patrol he could always be depended upon. This produced much better results than adults pushing good leader out of the way to force the opportunity for another scout.

 

The same philosophy holds true for the top spot SPL. He is trusted with developing and running our troop program as well as carrying on our tradition of excelling at the troop level in District/Council events. While older guys used to dodge SPL, now they are engaged all the way to age 18.

 

Dont get me wrong not every single older scout is energetically engaged in pursuing line leadership. For some, it takes more years of maturing and a few never step up. We work with them in other staff positions (when selected by SPL) to help them grow as they are able.

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Brent, I think yeh want to take a step back and think about that JLC thing a bit, eh?

 

Yeh say that the PL is the most important position in the troop. I agree.

 

But now you're goin' to set up a system where your troop's best guys and leaders aren't PLs, they're JLC members. In fact, to get to be one of those cool guys, yeh have to graduate up from bein' a Patrol Leader.

 

Kids aren't dumb. They'll look at that setup and say "I want to be on JLC, they're the top dogs". Your structure will speak much, much louder to 'em than your words. So PL will become in their mind just a stepping-stone position on the road to bein' with the coolest guys.

 

Doin' something here and there with individual boys like you describe is just fine. So is retirin' from PL and just becoming a "regular patrol citizen" again. There are lots of way to address "burnout", often one of 'em is new challenges as Patrol Leader. Patrol high adventure trips? More completely independent patrol trips?

 

I've seen a lot of troops try da JLC/LC/etc. type thing. While it's OK, I don't think you'll get da results you want for your program. Seems to work better for your type of program if da troop positions remain in their patrols rather than get pulled out. So your QM fellow or SPL might occasionally be on detached duty, but he still comes home and eats, sleeps, and contributes as a regular member to his patrol. That really conveys in your structure what yeh say in your words - the Patrol Leader is the most important position.

 

Besides, learnin' how to "pass the baton" to the next fellow and then respect and support him is one of those life skills we should teach boys, don't yeh think? It'll take some coaching, but that's what we're here for!

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh 3452]

I guess I'm the one that stated that the PL is the highest ranking leader in the troop. Because of this, like the SPL in most other troops, the PL is "assigned" by the SM on a by-request basis. As the PL's become proficient, they "step down" into the supporting roles of SPL and other troop officers. From those positions they support and assist the new PL's while they get their feet on the ground. They do not mentor/coach/direct the PL's they simply ask, "What can I do to help you?" They have the experience and skills to do just that.

 

The most "senior" of the PL's is the one with the most responsibility and that would be the PL of the NSP who works with the TG/Instructor getting the new guys up and running. It is their responsibility to get the boys through advancement and ultimately one of the boys from the NSP will hopefully step up and request PL of their group and more or less become more independent their second or third year.

 

This process seems to do away with the concept of recognition and power struggles amongst the boys, but the helping/caring style of leadership plays well with the boys. The boys of the troop officer corps may have more responsibility, but they get the most perks, too. They camp together and form somewhat of a venture patrol of the more experienced and hard working boys.

 

The "philosophy" of our troop is the best scouts get the toughest jobs. If one doesn't want to pitch in and work, they get a patrol of their own and they can babysit themselves the best they can. They are the ones most often patrol camped closest to the adults.

 

PL's are given the opportunity to lead once they have shown performance in the other supportive roles such as T/G, Scribe, Instructor, and SPL

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen 10]

Beavah,

I am aware of the issues you mention, I consider them very valid points. My goal is to keep the PL as the most important position, with the others in support. How to do this? The PLC (not the JLC) will plan and run the Troop - deciding what trips we go on, what we do at meetings. This may not be readily apparent to the boys at this time, but will be learned as we go along. Right now, we have 26 Scouts in 3 full patrols of 8, with an SPL and the TG/QM. The SPL and PLs are the "power" positions in the Troop, doing the planning. As SM, I treat the PLs as the leaders of the Troop. The SPL and TG/QM are treated more as my assistants in supporting the PLs. It is a fine line, which I hope we can establish clearly for the boys to see.

 

Yes, the JLC will hopefully have some "cool" factor, where the boys will want to join it. My goal is not to have the JLC be the most sought after group (that would be the PLC), but will be the group to keep the older boys interested in the Troop and active. A 15 year-old Scout who has never run for PL or never put in the effort to gain the confidence of his patrol mates to elect him, is going to stay in the patrol. If he does want to move into the JLC with his peers, he will see the PL position as the stepping stone. I think that motivation also works, though the main goal should be to want to serve as PL.

 

I think the best way to describe my vision of the JLC is the way GBB used the JASMs, at least as described in the 3rd Edition SM HB. Our oldest boys aren't 16 yet, but they have the experience of many 16 year olds. Our 5 oldest boys have all served as either SPL or PL (most still are), have all attended NYLT and have gone on a HA trip (NT). They have anywhere from 52 - 69 nights camping, and are either First Class or Star rank. They have all attended 3 weeks of Summer Camp.

 

This is one of those issues that is hard to noodle out. On one hand, if a Scout becomes PL when he is 13 and stays PL for the next 3 years, the Troop won't have many boys who ever serve as PL. I would never tell a Scout he can't run for PL again - as long as he wants to, that is fine. I just feel once the Scout has served as PL (ours are serving for at least 2 terms, more like 3 or 4 currently), and is one of the older boys in the patrol, it is probably time to get him out of there and let him try some new responsibilities. It is that age-old problem of keeping the older boys interested, and letting them feel like it is THEIR Troop, that they have the ownership. I don't see how an older Scout will get that sense of ownership if he stays in the patrol, now underneath a younger, less-experienced PL. I could well be wrong on this, and we may have to change the program as we mature as a Troop.

 

Our thoughts on this type of program may also come from the fact that we started with a group of six 11 year-olds who have carried the leadership roles while young. In a mature Troop, these boys wouldn't have been PL until they were older. Now that we have gotten a little older, all of our PLs are 13 - 14. The 11 year-olds are having to wait to get a chance to hold those positions, which is good, IMO.

 

jblake,

I see the PL as the most important job in the Troop, but not the highest ranking. The difference in the two might not be readily apparent, but I will save that for another thread.

 

GBB divided Troop officers into the following groups, which I find interesting:

Commissioned Troop Scouters - SM, ASM

Warrant Troop Leaders - SPL, JASM

Patrol Officers - PL, APL

Other Troop Officers - Scribe, QM, Bugler

 

JASMs were Instructors, Contest Leader, Outdoor Activities Director, Game Leader. Could also be Scribe, QM, Bugler(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, readin' back, I was kind of figurin' that this thread would be about Eagle 732's problem of the older boys foistin' the PL job off on younger fellows. So let's return to that, since I'm sure a bunch of other scouters have good ideas for that situation.

 

I'm goin' to spin off BrentAllen's very different situation since I reckon a lot of folks are followin' the progress of his troop, and it really illustrates the progress and challenges of a startup program.

 

Beavah