How do Scout Troops manage Den Chiefs?

[croushorn]

Been reading a lot of posts about the use of Den Chiefs. I have to admit this is one area Ive been frustrated with for about the last 7 years that I cant get a good grip on and utilize effectively. The only time anyone has even attempted to do it in my Troop is when the Scout has a little brother in a den and M or D is the DL; I surmise the parent DL sees it as an easy POR for the Scout and hopefully also sees it as a help for them. But have no idea how much leadership is really being shown. Now, I always try and utilize lessons from my OA days where when at all possible avoid pairing a Scout with a parent as an advisor, and fear that situation can turn into a glamorized gopher role for the DL (which could happen anyways).

So a few interrelated questions for the forum

1.) What criteria do you use to qualify a Scout to be a DC? Like the idea of taking the on-line training first.

2.) What criteria do you put on a DL to get a DC? Would it be acceptable to use as on-line DC training as pre-req?

3.) How do SMs keep in touch with the DL to make sure the DC is doing what he should be? We use the traditional patrol method, so is this a position for the ASPL to monitor or should an ASM/SM? And how? Periodic phone calls, emails, reports from the DC and/or DL?

4.) How do you get the DC to accept his commitment to continuing to be a part of the Troop, but also take on the additional time demands of being an active and reliable leader in the Pack & Den hes assigned to? Sit down with M&D to make sure they understand the scope of the roll and periodic requirements, additional commitment their son is about to make and agree to get him to all of the needed events in addition to those of the Troop?

Please, I am interested in applicable and proven advice and direction from those that successfully use the DC as a POR i.e. real examples, not academic lectures. Thank you!

 

[Twocubdad]

Great questions! I can't wait for the answers. I have all the same problems.

 

I have just those issues with one of my DCs now. This Scout has been DC for his younger brother's den for almost two years. (Great!) His dad is the pack CC, but attends all den functions with the younger son, so I have some of the same suspicions you allude to. The dad makes me nervous in that he's all about his son making Eagle "between football and lacrosse seasons." (Grrrrrr). The few pack functions I've been to the the DC seems to be doing scut work for his dad, no real program involvement with the cubs.

 

On the other hand, I had two other recent DCs who did great jobs for their dens and stayed engaged with the troop. Unfortunately, the time commitment of two Scout meetings a week nearly killed them and their parents. They made it less than a year.

 

Thinking about this as I'm writing this, I suppose a big part of all this is our old bugaboo "active participation." I don't have a problem with the two DCs who stayed active in the troop because I was constantly in touch with them. Just in passing, we would talk about their involvement with the dens and I would hear about what they were doing. No idea what was going on with the other one.

 

Being a den chief is a great experience. I was a DC for several years as a Scout. It was my younger brother's den, but the meeting was held after school at a neighbor's house, so I just walked to the meetings. Den's don't meet like that anymore. The logistics of being a Den Chief now days seems to be a huge burden.

 

I don't think I have unrealistic expectations for the DCs. If two meetings a week are a burden, I don't have a problem with the den being the priority. But when possible, I do expect the DC to attend troop meetings -- and it should be possible a couple times a month.

[Bob White]

The troop I served worked with a few different packs. We always made it know that we would be happy to try and supple Den Chiefs to the dens that wanted them. But we did not try to force dens to take Den Chiefs nor did we force scouts to become Den Chiefs.

 

The Senior Patrol Leader would select scouts to approach and suggest that they consider being Den Chiefs and explained their vale to both the packs and the troops. The troop only allowed Fiorst Class Rank Scouts or higher to be Den Chiefs as it was felt that an understanding and working knowledge of the basic scout skills was necessary in orer to do the job correctly.

 

We then gave them training at the troop level. When a Den showed interest in having a Den Chief we went to our selected scouts and offered them the opportunity. Whether they accepted, or which opportunities were accepted, depended largely on den meeting days and times and location. We usually had three or four scouts serving as Den Chief at any given time.

 

 

[croushorn]

Twocubdad: glad I'm not the only one seeing these things!

"I don't have a problem with the two DCs who stayed active in the troop because I was constantly in touch with them."

That's one of my biggest concerns with the position: I don't have the time/ability to monitor the events of another Scouting unit, so I'd need to delegate this to either an on-target ASM or very effective ASPL (possible!?) to stay on top of. I have no older Scouts that have done this well enough to guide a younger one through it. So I need a champion to do it right and be the trailblazer to set the standard. I cannot accept putting a kid in a role out there all by himself without giving him an advisor to fall back on for direction and support. And I am very skeptical that an average M or D DL can be that, without them falling back into their roles of being a M or D...

 

[croushorn]

"We usually had three or four scouts serving as Den Chief at any given time."

WOW... how many were in your troop that you could support that?

[Bob White]

Anywhere from 32 to 39 active Scouts

[gcnphkr]

We are changing the way we do Den Chiefs. We had two Cubmasters and a Pack Committee Chair crossover this year. They are now ASMs responsible for our pack relations. One handles the Den Chief training for the Troop (I like the idea of asking the DL's to do the online training so they understand the position). The other two keep in touch with the packs so that we have a better idea of what we can do to help them. They also will coach the DCs. So far we are just getting started. We hope add 4 more DCs to cover the Webelos Dens. We will try to get down to Bear and Wolf Dens as well. Hopefully as we get more DCs in the packs the Cubs will aspire to be one themselves when the time comes.

[theysawyoucomin']

First,

Remember what Stosh said on another thread. Rank and age aside, it is the spirit of the Boy scout that will determine if he is a good DC.

 

I have only seen three successful DC in 7 years, and 5 failures. Failure being defined as the DC not staying for a year , not doing the job, saying yes and then not even attending a meeting.

 

1 Criteria: Two of the DC that met with success both went to Council/District day long training. I don't know how much it helped in the end but at least it told the DC's what to do. "Wasting" a Saturday away from the Pirates of the Carib video game doing DC training will show some level of committment. Selection should be by SM DL and parents all working together for the DC and the Cubs. The DL should take the online training and refer to it.

 

2.Again I think all of the above should work in concert to find a DC. The Parent DL (of the DC and cubs) may bring family baggage to the situation. You all be the judge.Big brother DC bossing the cub while Mom is the DL is a recipe for bedlam.

 

3.

I think the DL and SM should talk. it is afterall a POR within the Troop. Insure that the DL knows how to guide the boy scout in having his rope turn red, white and blue by earning the DC award. You will find it online. I never went in for requiring the boys to lead singing. Magic tricks, crafts, and general help can make the cubs think of the boys as a leader. Our DC led the soda bottle rocket activity, electric motor bear activity, went on two camping trips with Webelos.

 

4. Troop

I had my meetings after school twice a month. For saturday activities I told the DC to go with the Troop. When the cubs wanted to know where he was I told them camping ect. to make the DC appear outdoorsy to the cub. I did not embellish but I did talk about hiking , camping, cooking all with the thought that soon enough cubs you'll be doing the same.

 

 

Most important I had the DC lead a min of one activity each meeting. It made the Cubs listen to him solely for some meeting time. HE was a leader at that time even if it was a game, magic trick or craft. He led. I would tell the Cubs in front of the parents, "Make sure you tell your folks about what Ian did". This would lead to a further talk at home.

 

Soda bottle water rockets was the first event he did.

 

The next meeting I did a magic trick that was in a cub book when I was a boy. We put a hankercheif over the DC hand while he gave the universal "thumbs up" gesture. I had some pins which the cubs all looked at, while their attention was diverted the DC took the carrot he palmed under the hankercheif and replaced it from where histhumb was. I proceeded to stick pins in his "thumb" while he made faces of pain. I told the cubs he was the toughest boy in the Troop. My own son said we was going to be sick to his stomach just watching. Well I pulled about ten pins back out and the boys all wanted to see the bloddy thumb. We uncovered the thumb and there was no marks from the pins.

The DC just stood there happily eating the carrott.

We then told the cubs the secret.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

"Selection should be by SM DL and parents all working together for the DC and the Cubs.

 

Not if your intent is to follow the BSA program, and to make use of the Leadership Development Method.

 

The Senior Patrol Leader selects the Den Chiefs aaccording to the Scoutmaster training, the Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook.Do you know of anything in the Boy Scout training or handbooks that says otherwise?

 

Den Chief is a Troop position, not a Pack position it is not for a Den Leader to choose Den Chiefs. Consider letting the SPL do his own job.

 

"Never do a job for a boy that a boy can do for himself."(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[theysawyoucomin']

Bob,

Ursus asked for what worked. I know 20 cubs that were enriched this way. But I thank you for the handbook directive. I can't undo the fun the boys had.

 

If the SPL picks a Scout to do it, and the Scout doesn't want to, does the SPL apply servant leadership and do the the additional task. We have SPL's that can't run a police call, you really expect them to pick/ "order" a boy to do a year long position?

 

Please, the BSA just had me vote yes on a BOR for Eagle because the "be active" wording should be "at a minimum pay $11.00 per year and be counted/carried on the rolls of a unit you do not have to go camping with. Focus on yourself and your needs." I digress.

 

Sometimes Irving expects us to run a program the best we see fit because we are actually there.

 

 

 

Patton(whom I have no resemblance in any manner) once was ordered by SHEAF "do not take the city of Trier with any less than three divisions".

 

He messaged back, "I have already taken Trier with two divisions. Do you want me to give it back?"

 

 

Roaring snoring Bear,

Select the DC as you may, try it bob's way, Pick the right kids, with helpful parents, a suppotrive DL and it could be the best POR a kid has. More of the cubs will crossover. You'll see the joy in the cubs eyes whenever they see their DC. Make the DC a rock star.

Good Luck

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Is it your suggestion that if you had allowed the SPL to do his job that the cub scouts would not have had fun?

 

I do not see how following the program would have altered the results but simply done a better job of including the junior leader as the program methods intended.

 

It is not the handbook answer, It is the Boy Scout program, the Handbooks are simply receptacles where the information is stored for those who choose to follow the program. Being in a Handbook is not a bad think.

[theysawyoucomin']

No sir, not at all.

If I had waited ,I would not have gotten a DC at all.

 

My son was a DC and an APL at the same time.

 

I also consulted with the SM and since the DC candidiate thought it was ok the SM said ok.

 

Not every Troop marches to the beat of the handbook. Some Troops have PL's that swear at the Scouts and need to be releived. Some Troops have SPL's that are worthless. A DL is not always likely to have contact with the feeder troop. The SPL may not be aware of the need.

 

That's how I did it bob, I'm going to be the SM in a couple of weeks I'll be sure to do it the other way in the future.

[watercub]

Interesting responses.

 

My boys are 5 years apart - 14 and 9. My oldest is a Star Scout who was asked by our SM to assist me (parent, ASM and W1 DL) with running our Webelos 1 patrol. Note that I didn't say "den." His charge is to assist me and my two reluctant co-leaders in forming a pretty close group of 4th graders into a "patrol." So he works the patrol method in and we'll take it from there when he finishes the 6 months. He's made some headway since July 1.

 

One of the co-leaders monitors and reports on his performance to the SM. We get responsible, experienced assistance from a Scout who can teach the boys some things they need to know and helps our Activity Badge teachers. He usually attends all meetings.

 

He is a counselor at a summer Webelos Adventure Camp in a neighboring Council. He's pretty qualified to provide service to the younger boys, who know him and respect him. These are all the things you need in a Den Chief and it really can't be trained in at a all-day training.

 

I have advised our Troop and Pack leadership caution in selecting and assigning a Den Chief in years past. If it is not well-done, the Pack is disappointed, the Den Leaders are also and the Troop gets nothing out of it. It's a great POR in theory, but if the Scout fails there could be repercussions outside of the Troop - they represent all of the Scouts to the boys in the Webelos Dens. They have to be a certain quality to be able to relate to 9 and 10 year-olds and be available for meetings. If they aren't doing it, it hurts the "pipeline."

 

So, there isn't really anything wrong with being M or D, ASM and a DL (was older son's CM as well...) when it comes to being the DC in little bro's Den, when accountability is assigned outside of the family.

 

All he has to do is give the Webelos is the six month kick-start. That will get him to Life. No two year assignment, since that would wear him out.

 

That's a different take on DC management. As usual in Scouting, there are numerous means to the end, and this just happens to be one that works for us. As for the next DC? I haven't seen another Scout in the current Troop membership that demonstrates enough tolerance and flexibility for that. It might be awhile.

[croushorn]

Thats one of my numerous concerns: he represents the Troop to his Den. Seen where other Troops DC either have no impact or an outright negative influence and the Troop doesnt get any of the crossovers or they leave Scouts. I will need to be very careful in who I let take on this role.

We will be having elections and POR assignments in a couple weeks and starting this eve I really want to push this position to see who answers the call when the new SPL offers the PORs. What I had in mind is that would be a logical step towards moving into the Troop Guide POR when this group of Webs crosses over in Feb. His 6 month turn as DC will be over and now he gets to guide them in the Troop. But only the right kind of kid would have the patience for a full year of that.

I will take the on-line DC training so I can familiarize myself with it first. I like the idea of having a structure for him to follow each den meeting. Gets all on the same page as to what is expected another concern. It looks like I will monitor the role myself this first time, maybe next I can delegate it to an ASM. Thanks for all of your insight, Ill post reports on how it progresses.