New SM to the forums

[mikemayer67 10]

I discovered the forum while doing a web search to find a repository of "official BSA policies." I have been SM for just over a year now and basically, am getting very frustrated trying to discover what is and what is not official policy. I read one thing on various scouting resources. I hear another from my troop commissioner. Is there any place to "go to the source" to get the real scoop?

 

Example 1) During IOLS, we were taught that BSA policy does not allow a scout to swing a full axe. Yet the scout handbook gives directions how to do so.

 

Example 2) Last camping trip, I wanted to allow our older scouts 14+ to take a short hike on their own. I trust this group of boys and wanted to empower them so that they felt they still have something to get from the troop and are not just hanging around to give to the younger scouts. We went over the trail maps, discussed exactly what route they would take, planned for various contingencies, and as a last line of defense would be carrying a cell phone (I checked for coverage). My troop commissioner squashed this in the name of lacking 2 deep leadership. YET... in my exploration of the forums over the last hour or so, I saw a couple recommendations to do just what I had wanted to do and nobody raised an objection!!!

 

I am an Eagle scout and base most of my goals on what I remember having worked well when I was going through the program. I know things have changed. I simply want to know where to go to get the truth... and not someone's well meaning but potentially misguided opinion.

 

Thanks much,

mike mayer

SM Troop 207

Gaithersburg Presbyterian Church (Maryland)

Montgomery District

National Capital Area Council

[Apache Bob 10]

Mike - welcome to the campfire. Just pull up a log and sit a spell.

Your unit commissioner, in most cases, is not a member of your unit. He(she) is there to be a resource for you and to let you know what is going on at district and council level. You are the unit leader and not him. I repeat - Not Him.

He is allowed in your unit only because you allow him to be there. If he is causing a problem with some of his advise ask him to leave. Then contact the District commissioner and ask to have that unit commissioner removed from being assigned to your unit. You are in charge not him.

Yes I went over board but after 19 years as a commissioner it bugs me to see or hear about a commissioner who doesn't know what he is doing.

 

[scoutldr 732]

Welcome to our little campfire, Mike.

 

First of all, none of us are official spokespersons of the BSA, but between us, we have about a bazillion years of experience. Sounds like you are being offered some "urban myths" in your training. Whenever that happens, just politely ask the instructor for the reference document for that particular policy, so you can incorporate it into your troop training. That usually settles it. For health and safety issues, the "official policy" is the BSA Guide to Safe Scouting (aka, "G2SS"), which is now available online. The paragraphs in BOLD are mandatory.

 

Sounds like your "Older scout hike" was right on target. I would have done the same thing. I assume this was an activity subset of a larger outing (troop campout) at which you DID have 2-deep...this meets the requirement.

 

I have to ask...why is your Unit Commissioner camping with you? (It's not prohibited, just unusual). If he/she is camping with you, they sure as heck should not be interfering with your leadership.

[Oak Tree 15]

Welcome to the forums!

 

The myths of Scouting are many, and oft-repeated. There are lots of places to go to see what is officially true (depending on the topic), but there is typically no place to go see what is *not* true.

 

Your best bet is indeed, as scoutldr says, to ask people to show you where the policy is stated. The hard part, especially for a new leader, though, is to even know enough to know what to question. You can't question every single statement made by your IOLS instructor, presumably. Still, whenever you hear a sweeping statement that sounds like it might be questionable, you can ask. A lot of these will revolve around the G2SS, and those should be easily resolved. Other references can be a bit more obscure, but someone on the forum probably knows :-)

 

On your specific topics, axes aren't even mentioned in the G2SS (this surprised me). Clearly the handbook should rule this one. From a boy's perspective, the handbook is *the* guide.

 

For item 2, I think you are fine, and I would absolutely support you. The unit commissioner absolutely should not be interfering. He could be a helpful reference, but he's not in the chain of command.

 

The rule from the G2SS is "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required."

 

I personally find it hard to interpret the second sentence in light of the first one. Also, they don't define "outing". Are a group of Scouts going on a hike participating in an independent outing? Or are they just doing a piece of a larger trip? What if you are on a trip with three leaders and the troop decides to split in 2 for an entire day and do separate activities? Is that ok? I would say that by the letter of the law, it is. Whether it's a good idea is a separate question.

 

So, #1, ask your UC to show you the policy. #2, use your judgement. #3, tell your UC that you are going to use your judgement and it's not his call. #4, learn, read, get trained, ask around, do whatever you can to enhance your ability to use good judgement.

[mikemayer67 10]

"I have to ask...why is your Unit Commissioner camping with you? (It's not prohibited, just unusual). If he/she is camping with you, they sure as heck should not be interfering with your leadership."

 

Our UC is not camping with us. The question was raised by one of our ASMs to me. I could not find the answer, so I redirected to the UC to see if he could point me to any pertinent policy. I was shocked by the answer. I fully expected him to help me address the ASM's concern. Not the other way around.

[mikemayer67 10]

Thanks to all the advice!!! I did apparently have the relationship backwards between the UC and myself and the CC. (I always involve the CC in any major decision I make so that I have a checkpoint.) The UC occasionally comes in with "decrees from above." Usually I concur. There have been cases where I did not, but I deferred to him. I will push back harder in the future.

 

THANKS AGAIN!

[Apache Bob 10]

Just remember, you are the SM and no one else.

Advice is a great thing, even mine, but it is free so you know how much it is worth. Go with your gut and your knowledge.

[click23 66]

As an assistant district commissioner I tell scouters in my district that if I tell them something about a scout policy and cannot show them where the information comes from, in an up to date official BSA publication, then it is not policy.

 

As a scoutmaster you should be able to dispel almost all myths with up to date copies of:

 

Guide to Safe Scouting

Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Guidebook

Scoutmasters Handbook

Boy Scout Handbook

[Oak Tree 15]

click23 got the most important ones.

 

Many uniform myths can be dispelled by the Insignia Guide. Usually not as big a deal as some of the others.

 

I'd also suggest having a copy of the Troop Committee Guidebook.

 

You pretty much need a copy of Boy Scout Requirements for other reasons, but it can be handy for myth-busting as well.

[eghiglie 10]

"Example 1) During IOLS, we were taught that BSA policy does not allow a scout to swing a full axe. Yet the scout handbook gives directions how to do so."

 

During IOLS I was told the same thing, that a 3/4 axe was to be used instead. The reasons had to do with the length of the handle and the height of the boy and where the strike would occur on the wood and control of the weight. Taller boys use the longer axe.

 

I thought it strange but took the really old guy's advice and it worked.

 

The sad part though is we only use the axe for the Totin Chip, the rest of the time we buy pre split firewood. The rules at many campgrounds don't allow wood gathering.

 

One campground requires us to by the wood from them. The concern they have is the bugs that come in with the outside firewood. But I give them credit, the price they charge for firewood is much lower than the local stores.

 

 

 

 

 

[mikemayer67 10]

"During IOLS I was told the same thing, that a 3/4 axe was to be used instead. The reasons had to do with the length of the handle and the height of the boy and where the strike would occur on the wood and control of the weight. Taller boys use the longer axe."

 

This makes sense. But at my IOLS, we were told that only hand axes could be swung. Anything more must be held stationary against the wood by one scout while another scout struck it with a wooden mallet or a shelele (sp?). Really inane part was that this was not for splitting wood but for cross cutting it. I could probably have done it quicker with a butter knife.

 

Another responder suggested that this might be a council policy as it certainly is not consistent with the Boy Scout Handbook.

 

Thanks for the thought.

mike