When to call the law on your scouts????

[fred8033 1593]

raisinemright wrote: "I had a little incident with a municipal youth group I used to help lead. We caught a kid with some pot, disposed of it and set up a meeting with his parents with the intention of letting them handle the punishment, besides being kicked out of the club. The other leader was a cop but the kid didn't know it. He showed up to the meeting in uniform. Seeing the kid's look of utter fear, I had a hard time keeping s straight face."

 

That's an absolutely great story.

 

We have an active parent who's a deputy sheriff. He helps our troop and our troop helps some of his police community activities. You can sure as bet we'll be doing that too if anything significant ever happened. He doesn't need to say or do anything. Maybe a friendly word of advice. But having him there in full uniform would say plenty.

[Beavah 205]

But having him there in full uniform would say plenty.

 

Yah, hmmm....

 

What exactly do yeh think it would say, exactly?

 

That as Scoutmaster and adult yeh can't handle the situation on your own?

 

That law enforcement officers are intimidating window dressing to be used to scare people?

 

That yeh don't respect the parents enough to have a conversation with them about their kid, but yeh think it's OK to talk it up with your buddies in law enforcement? That they should always keep Mr. Jones at a distance and treat his son differently?

 

We run a youth activity. All the ordinary behaviors of youth we should be able to handle within the context of that youth activity, or we really have no business doin' it. If yeh want to bring in a law enforcement officer in full uniform, do it for Crime Prevention MB and let the boys see how the police work with the community, are service-oriented, are to be admired and perhaps considered as a career rather than feared.

 

Put another way, how would yeh feel if your COR brought in an attorney to your next troop committee meeting, makin' like he had a notice of intent to sue to serve yeh, over some poor judgment call yeh made on the last campout. I bet da look of fear would be priceless on many an adult's face, the way it was on this boy's. But is that really the way to treat people? Is that really how yeh want a (mostly ) honorable profession portrayed to others?

 

Sauce for the goose.

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033 1593]

Beavah ... Mellow out. All the kids know him. He's an active parent in the troop and effectively a committee member. He has helped our events and we've helped his sheriff's department events (forming snow blocks, etc).

 

In the last eight years, we've only had one scout who we've asked to be visit with the troop committee because of behavior. We had talked with the parents before and they understood why and we worked out how to handle the situation. Visiting the troop committee was almost a formality to impress the seriousness of what was happening.

 

 

[Engineer61 19]

Pretty simple for me ...

 

1) Is the incident a felony in my locale? If yes, notify the authorities.

 

2) Is the incident a misdemeanor in my locale? If yes, notify the authorities.

 

3) Does the situation threaten a person or property? If yes, notify the authorities.

 

4) Does the incident violate a group or school rule? Notify the group or school.

 

5) Does my *not* notifying the authorities break a law? If yes, notify the authorities.

 

6) If I don't know ... get a second opinion...if that is from the authorities, then fine.

 

I'm not a cop/prosecutor/judge/teacher/administrator, so I don't have the authority to sort out legalities...

[Scoutfish 16]

If a scout pulls a knife on another scout...I'll call the authorities. No, I am not concerned with being polite to his parents first.

 

And you know what...no matter who the scout is, or how long he has been bad, they start somewhere at some time. The incident at the troop campout might very well be the very first time. Yeah, it does start somewhere, and this incident may be THAT start!

 

And Beavah, If a scouts schooling, future reputation or future carrer is ruined..tough for him. He should have thought of that before pulling a knife.

 

If a scout threaten to kill somebody and then procedes to inflict bodily harm, yeah, we will kick hjim out of the troop...while also calling LE.

 

I am a scouter, not a mediator of law enforcement and definantly not a protector of scouts future jobs/reputations, etc..

 

And as has happened so many times before in so many different place..just because the law shows up does not garantee anybody will be arrested>

 

Believe it or not, police has the ability and desrection to determine in a law has ben broken, violated or pushed> The cop may just look at me and say: "Sorry, I can talk to him, but nothing molre."

 

He might say: " WE'll write up a report for a future record, but this incident alone dosn't merit taking action.

 

Or he might say:" THis is more serious than you realize, good thing you called.

 

Who knows, he might look at me, smirk and call me a p*ssy.

 

But I will have no regets calling him.

 

Now, youi can coddle a scout and say : "Poor thing, somebody went and ruoined his entire life and it was completely not his fault in any way whatsoever!"

 

You can also blame the car for drunk driving too.

 

". They exist to catch and to punish those who have violated society's laws."

 

And you know what...detaining people against their will, pulling knives, physicall attacks, and putting people in dangerous situations are illegal.

[Basementdweller 608]

Being a Scouter you become parents to all the boys and even their parents......Some of the Parents are young enough to be my son or daughter......

 

 

We all have our problem scouts, generally we know who they are and their personalities and triggers.... I have spoken to many a cub parent about little billy scouts behavior issues.... I get eye rolls, an occasional denial.

 

I have been frustrated, exacerbated, furious, and disgusted with some of the nonsense that my boys get into.....but never to the point of raising my voice or of calling the law.

 

 

I think if I am ever force to call the police on one of my scouts, I will view my Adult scouting career as a failure and I have failed those I serve. I will probably resign

[nldscout 18]

Beavah

I have always followed your post and mostly agreed with you. In this case I have to disagree.

 

I am the one that see's these kids in court. I am the one that has to deal with Johnny because someone thought they cought "Talk" to him earlier and make things alright. Then when it reaches a final point I have to deal with them. It gets irritating at times.

 

Last week it was a 17yr old that I sentenced to a year, another 17 yr old that the Parents thought talking would do it, now is facing 3-7 in Prison. Plus others.

 

Courts do have programs your young people, records are sealed or expunged.

[noname 10]

NLDScout I'm with you! Just heard of a scout whose parents gave up on him years ago, bad kid ect. Well scouts took him in and turned him around, now eagle scout and West Point in the Fall. Yea that West Point. For me Im not concerned about how I look in front of the parents and the kids. There is a offical Scout incident as well, didnt see any mention of that yet!

[Eagle732 27]

I'm a big proponent for Scared Straight programs. I've threatened my own kids with an evening at the morgue ( I know the Med Examiner) if I ever catch them drinking and driving. I think graphic examples are what gets through to today's boys. They see so much on TV and video games that you have to get go to extremes at times to get the point across. I have no problem with having an officer show up in uniform and giving "The Talk" in order to set a boy straight.

 

Often calling the law is a judgement call and that's why we make the big bucks. I would not be too quick to make the call though.

 

Several years ago during a troop outing we had a boy set fire to a trash can in the bathroom of a building while the rest of the troop was upstairs sleeping. Fortunately another scout had gotten up to use the bathroom and was waiting for the young arsonist to come out and raised the alarm. Otherwise I'm afraid to think of what could have happened. The SM and CC were both present but no disciplinary action was taking. No charges were filed but maybe they should have been in this case.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I think we're confusin' some things here.

 

There is no doubt that some teenage behavior by "at risk" teens does move across the line into the realm of law enforcement. We can all come up with cases, and on occasion the "scared straight" thing does work if all the stars align. If yeh are workin' a specialty Venturing crew that's part of a prison diversion program yeh might be seeing some of this. In a regular troop program where we've known the kids since they were 11? Not likely, especially if we've been doin' our job along the way.

 

I agree completely with nldscout. If the people who know the boy and who have relationships with a boy that the boy values don't firmly address poor behavior early and often, the lesson that gets learned is that it's OK or that he can get away with it. I'm not advocatin' just "talking" to a lad, I'm an advocate for comin' down on him like a ton of bricks. But the people who should be doin' that are the people who have the most connection to him - his parents, his scout leaders, his friends. The ones that are big parts of his life. The punishment that matters most is loss of relationships, loss of respect from people yeh care about. And while the ton of bricks is important, what really counts is the follow up afterward, eh? That people stick with him, that he works to repair those relationships, or when removal becomes necessary that he feels their loss and still has support to move on differently.

 

Much as the police and courts do what they can in these cases, and yeh can point to a few local programs as "success stories", by and large the system is disconnected, impersonal, and unsuccessful at anything other than "processing" such youth. Often the law limits the justice system's response and definitely slows it down. It doesn't begin to offer the sort of ongoin' guidance required to really change behavior, which is why recidivism is so high. Mostly, what kids learn in their first trip through "the system" is that it's a paper tiger, to be dodged or dealt with but not feared. And if they start developin' friendships with others "in the system", then we've mostly lost the game. Because then those will be the relationships and da respect they want to hold on to.

 

Yah, yah, smaller communities are a bit better... sometimes. But unless yeh work in the system, yeh really have no idea whether the county prosecutor or the respondin' officer is good with kids. By and large, yeh won't be in your own community when yeh call law enforcement on a campout; yeh might even be in a different state... or country, which raises all kinds of additional issues. Yeh can find some genuinely saintly people who do their best, just as yeh can find some folks who don't do well by kids at all. But even the saints don't really have enough connection with the lad to achieve all that much.

 

And these days, while court records may be sealed, online stuff is wide open and stays with yeh for a long time.

 

So I'll stick by what I said. If we can't deal with all of the stuff that falls in the realm of ordinary teen "bad" behavior without callin' for backup from local LEOs, includin' some stuff that is "criminal" (kids sneak a beer along and share it, kids get in a fight, kid "vandalizes" the cabin wall with his knife, kid steals another kid's somethin' or other, kid shares a sexted picture of his underage girlfriend, kid is a bully, kid moons the camp director, etc.), then we need to find somethin' else to do with our volunteer time.

 

It's really just a form of cowardice in my book - an inability for an adult to stand up for what's right on his own without hiding behind some other authority. The only uniformed official yeh should need is the fellow that is wearing olive and tan.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh 3452]

I've worked with youth in more than just Scouting situations and regardless of the group, the dynamics are all the same.

 

The issue is not whether one is able to handle the situation on their own, but whether one can discern when the situation is within certain boundaries and/or rules that need addressing.

 

I might be able to "handle" the situation on my own, but I have 40+ years of working with kids, ranging from institutionalized, to at-risk, to "normal". Can the same be said for the rookie SM who's out with his boys for his first summer camp? To think it's the SM's job to "handle" things is not an option. My BSA training and expectations do not as well.

 

Is the boy doing something illegal? Call the authorities because if one doesn't they can be held accountable or complicit. YP issues have always revolved around such "cover-ups" and a simple notification would have exonerated a lot of people along the way.

 

I have found over the years that institutional juveniles are far less likely to pull something because they know they can't get away with it. They have learned the hard way what the limits are. At-risk kids know the consequences and will not push the issue when it comes to shove time. Usually they don't ever want to find out what "or else" really means. But the "normal" kids are still trying to figure out the limits and will push harder than any of the others. Complicit parents will often unfortunately protect the problem child. Unless one wants to get embroiled in the middle of these legal morasses, it's better to report it to everyone at the same time and be done with it.

 

I had two boys (brothers) going at it in their tent at summer camp. Both boys had knives and were pretty much intent on using them. I was camp-master and went in and from a distance was able to quell the problem and disarm both boys. They were from out of council. I notified the camp, the authorities and parents and dumped the whole thing in their laps. It was not my business to resolve the issue. No lawyer ever contacted me about what happened and I have no idea of whatever happened to them, but it was not my problem after I stabilized the situation.

 

The last thing I want to do is sit in a court of law and try to explain to the judge why I knew about a boy's bag of recreational pot he had last summer at camp and did nothing about it except "talk" to him. While it is sometimes "understood" that driving 71 mph in a 65 mph zone will not catch the attention of a speed-trap, in a court of law, 66 mph in a 65 mph zone IS speeding, period. Pay the fine and have a good day.

 

As a scout leader, one is not called upon to be the judge of anything. Camp staff are not either, nor are local law enforcement officers for that matter. They only handle the situation and turn the handling of consequences to those who are in position to do so. Otherwise one opens themselves up to all kinds of legal litigation.

 

It's a rather harsh response to this issue, but the risks some are willing to take are not the same risks I am willing to take. Maybe that's why I have been around 40+ years working with youth. I lay down the rules at the beginning and simply state if anyone steps over these limits, an "or else" will occur. In working with "normal" kids in church youth groups and BSA units, I have never had one of my own youth ever try to figure out what "or else" meant.

 

Stosh

[Beavah 205]

Is the boy doing something illegal? Call the authorities because if one doesn't they can be held accountable or complicit.

 

Yah, this is just nonsense.

 

There is no duty to report criminal activity by minors, and anybody who tells yeh otherwise is just blowin' smoke. As a scouter, yeh have an obligation to act as a reasonably prudent adult, which means that in almost all cases yeh involve the parents and let them as the guardians of the lad take what they feel is appropriate action. Until yeh reach the parents, as a scout leader, yeh should be expected to act in loco parentis, eh? To act as a parent would or should. Not as an arm of the state, and certainly not abdicating your duty to the boy by washin' your hands and droppin' him on law enforcement.

 

As scout leaders of course we are "called on to be the judge" of things all the time. To judge safety, and quality of gear, and respond to boys actions and behaviors. Exercising prudent judgment is the primary role and duty of anyone working with kids. Again, if yeh are unwilling to accept that, then yeh have no business as a volunteer or professional in a youth program. Heck, yeh have no business bein' a professional in anything.

 

Yep, that might be a "rather harsh response to the issue", but it's the plain and simple truth. Doin' any kind of work comes with "risks" that should be balanced, but da risk of the legal boogeyman because yeh acted like a reasonably prudent parent or adult ain't one of 'em.

 

I'm curious, though. I posted a list of stuff that is criminal activity that scouts engage in from time to time in my last message. How many of you would call law enforcement for those things?

 

1. Kids sneak a beer along on a campout and share it.

2. Kids get in a fight.

3. Kid "vandalizes" the cabin wall with his knife (carves name, pokes hole in drywall, etc.)

4. Kid steals / "borrows" somethin' from another boy.

5. Kid shares a "sexted" picture of his girlfriend that she sent.

6. Kid moons the camp director.

 

Havin' sexted pictures of his girlfriend is, after all, felony possession of child pornography with a minimum 5 year sentence. For him and for her. Mooning the camp director is indecent exposure, a sex-offender-registry crime in many jurisdictions.

 

Sheesh. I suppose yeh all are in favor of "zero tolerance" policies that expel Eagle Scouts for havin' grandma's kitchen knives in his trunk while helpin' her move.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Engineer61 19]

Ok Beav, I'll play...I've had to deal with some of this....I have had to apply this to my baseball teams...

 

1. Kids sneak a beer along on a campout and share it.

 

Call parents, send home, expel Scout(s) who brought alcohol from troop.

 

2. Kids get in a fight.

 

Call all affected Scout's parents, if medical attention required, call authorities, expel Scout(s) from troop as needed.

 

3. Kid "vandalizes" the cabin wall with his knife (carves name, pokes hole in drywall, etc.)

 

Call parents, notify property owner, expel Scout from troop.

 

4. Kid steals / "borrows" somethin' from another boy.

 

Notify all affected Scout's parents, victim's parents have the options, send thief home, expel Scout from troop.

 

5. Kid shares a "sexted" picture of his girlfriend that she sent.

 

Call Police. Any number of sex crimes may have been committed, (some of which are felonies) which they have to sort out. Expel Scout from troop. Notify District of sexual offense. Notify all parents.

 

6. Kid moons the camp director.

 

Director's option to press charges. Expel Scout from troop.

 

Remember Beav...you are overseeing and protecting ALL of the members of the troop...not just the offenders.

 

[Eagle732 27]

Heck, I did 1 and 2 when I was a scout! Come to think of it on more than one occasion.

[Scoutfish 16]

Wow! And Beavah thought I was tough by calling the law?

 

Looking at Engineer's examples. I don't think I'd exp[ell the scouts on examples 1,2,4 or 6

 

Maybe he gets suspended for a meeting or two. But I'd let the troop decide. Yeah, I might give "strong" suggestions, but still let the troop handle it.

 

#3 Carving his name. Well, it all it ends up is carving his name, I wouldn't suspend the scout,. Instead, the scout in question and myself would go visit the CD, the Ranger, or PD..or the owner if private owned facility, or park Ranger if US/ state park property.

I'd have teh scout own up to it and see what reprimandss and compesation it will take to fix/ repair the damage. THis would be both a punishment to the scout as well as a lesson in responcibility.

 

Also, this will also show that we are a responcible unit as I would hate to have our unit banned from the facility after the fact - when the damage is later discovered.

 

#5: Yeah, this one is tricky. If by share, you mean an underage scout shares a picture with his buddies by showing them his phone which got the mesage ( and sexting IS sexual text - not photos)..I'm not so sure I'd call the law. Things to consider is if this is the first time this happened too. If it was a repeated activity, then I'd call the parents and tell them if they don't handle this right now, the law will be definantly called.

 

 

Now, if the scout retexts the sexting to his friends, I have to step it up a notch. I'd call the DE or SE and explain what happened and see how to procede from there.

 

Now, I ain't trying to sound all like Beavah, but there is a difference between an underage person sending another underage person a sext message and an adult sending an underage person a sext message.

 

In this case, mentality anmd maturity do mean a big difference. plus in this case, the sender is the real culptit, not the reciever.

Sure, the scout ain't showing any tact or class in sharing, but that sorta falls under the " chances of sender beware".

 

Still don't condone it, but I do not see this as the same as child pornography.

 

Again, if an adult sextes a child..law will be called immediately !

 

When I say I would be willing to call the law on scouts, I am talking about knives being pulled, extreme cases of physical altercations, strong threats of violence or intended physical ( or worse) harm.

 

Not gonna call the law because a scout from one patrol "steals" the flag of another patrol.