WAKWIB 107 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 WestCoastScouter, Do what you believe to be the right thing. However, you mentioned it has previously been reported. No results. I'm not surprised. If you report it again to the DE/SE I would predict the same zero response. Now, were you to indicate to them that you sent copies of this report to the area media....well, they would probably shut down the offending unit immediately, and have TSA-style searches at all Scout functions. On issues like this, the professional staff has two speeds: snooze, and hyper-space. They never can seem to find the middle-ground of supporting the clearly written policies. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yah WAKWIB, yeh have to remember that da role of the BSA professional staff is NOT to police the activities of units. They exist as a support service for chartered units in their service area. If yeh expect that they have any role at all in investigating or policing the activity of units you are goin' to be sorely disappointed. It's a bit like callin' the textbook publisher's local representative to report a teacher doin' a poor job usin' their textbook. That's why da appropriate action in this case is not necessarily to go traipsing off to da SE. If yeh have a real firsthand concern, the people who need to address it are the unit leaders and the chartered org's authorities, and that's the place to start (and end). If yeh have a secondhand report as in this case, I'd generally not get in the middle of it, other than a call the CM to let 'em know you've got a transfer application and to exchange information (things they should know and things you should know). You know, a friendly heads up to a fellow scouter about what you've been told, and an opportunity for him/her to give yeh a friendly heads up about the family's needs/behavior. Da reason is there seems to be a lot of other stuff goin' on. Often people who leave a troop do so with a lot of "baggage", and their reports have to be taken with a full helping of salt. They typically recite a litany of every real or perceived "wrong" that their son or them experienced over many years. Alcohol use on campouts may be a couple of people and the unit leaders or CO are already dealing with it with those folks in private, or maybe they've already made a considered judgment that those parents don't come out frequently and it wasn't a hill to die on, or perhaps because it was more important to get dad out with his son than to worry about one can of beer. Or... After all, it doesn't seem like there was actual drunkenness around kids, eh? Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I also think it's important to remember that we are, if I understand correctly, talking about a violation of BSA rules, not criminal conduct. Grown adults sitting around a campfire sipping an adult beverage isn't illegal, even if there are children present. If you think these guys are getting hammered-drunk and ripping up and down the road with the boys in the back of the pickup, then call law enforcement. Around here, child endangerment would be one of the charges tacked onto the list. That changes your reporting threshhold considerably. And as Beavah, Esq., will remind us, may vary by jurisdiction. But if it's four guys splitting a sixpack after the kids are asleep, to me that's a matter for the pack and CO to handle internally. For those outside the unit it falls under the MYOB guidelines. Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The OP didn't say exactly where the pack was camping. I've been a Campmaster and I know our Camp Rangers and Camp Directors. I can't speak for the professionals in the council office, but I know what the Campmasters, Rangers and Directors would do. I've seen it happen with fireworks and a registered adult who didn't think the rules applied to him after being warned not to shoot them off in camp. He was escorted off of the property. It's been a few years back that it happened, but the mere mention of his name causes our Ranger for that camp to cuss like a sailor. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Alcohol use during an outing is a violation of the G2SS. "The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members." Who enforces the G2SS? What's the penalty to a SM or CM for not following the G2SS? Could a Scouter be removed for not following G2SS? Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 My process would be... CM should contact the head of the Chartered Partner and the COR. Hopefully, the CM already knows the Partner's own position on alcohol. I suspect it will be NO. I've seen my churchs' liability insurance policy, the perils of coverage denied are many. The CM has a quiet, friendly, firm word with the parents in question: We do not accept or support your having adult beverages at our Packs events. If the parents continue, tell them their child is welcome, they are welcome at meetings, but they are not welcome on events. If that response meets with resistance, give them their money back and wish them well. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Who enforces the G2SS? It's a GUIDEBOOK. I can never figure out why so many Scouters want to turn the materials that we generate to help people with a children's program into some sort of Criminal Code with investigators and enforcers and felony time. Surely da U.S. Code and da bookshelves full of Federal Regulations and da same stuff for states and all da attorneys to help navigate the morass are enough of that sort of thing without adding it to our scoutin' time with kids. Yeh don't enforce a guidebook. Yeh read it and learn from it and think about it, because it's there to help you do a good job with your kids and to keep 'em safe. And yeh do that not because someone is out there "enforcing", yeh do it because you care about kids and want to do your best. Surely, as scouters, we can understand that? Read and learn and understand. Act honorably and all da rest. But if a fellow is really showin' poor judgment such that he should no longer be involved in a program, then that's the Chartered Organization's to deal with, not the publisher of guidebooks that the CO subscribes to. So the norm is what is described here, eh? If a BSA exec is called about this, he's goin' to call the unit leader or CC or COR and pass along the information for them to deal with. Preferably with education, but movin' gradually up the chain as John-in-KC suggests, accordin' to their own values and understanding of the particulars of the situation. Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Gee, and for all these years I thought the items in bold print in the G2SS were the BSA rules and policies and the items in regular print were just guidelines. I don't know where I got that idea. Link to post Share on other sites
Cambridgeskip 658 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Tampa Turtle - At the risk of teaching Granny to suck eggs (do you know that one?) Belt and braces means a straight forward approach that leaves nothing to chance. Generally a term you'll find used in northern England but southerners like me picked it up when I was at univeristy 'oop north in Durham. Nice to see that somethings are the same your side of the pond, ie the difference between the "rules" and "guide lines" is just as murky! Link to post Share on other sites
Tampa Turtle 1011 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Cambridge, Actually I knew that. The first time I heard "I'm a belt and suspender's man" was at Architecture school talking about the NYC Citicorp building (the slanty roof one). It was built with a huge concrete dampening slab on wheels on the top to reduce sway. This was so to save on additional bracing. They ended up keeping the damper and bracing hence "belts and suspenders". Story may not be true but that is what I heard. I think it was a more common expression in the US a couple generations ago. I like "Belts and Braces" better; maybe it is the Alliteration. Link to post Share on other sites
WAKWIB 107 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 "The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members." Beavah sez: "It's a Guidebook"..... Does that mean that the word "prohibit" means "suggestion" nowadays? I get Beavah's point, to a point. G2SS is glorified common sense. But not all folks have common sense. So...adults are drinking at Cub Scout functions. CM is ok with it. CC is ok with it. CO is ok with it. Everybody is ok with it except the prohibition cited in G2SS. The question is then, when does the onus fall to BSA to make "prohibit" mean something? Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey H 25 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The question is then, when does the onus fall to BSA to make "prohibit" mean something? The BSA can decide not to re-charter a unit if the unit is consistently involved in unsafe practices or exhibits conduct that is consistently unbecoming to the organization. While the G2SS may be guidelines, I would not ignore words that include "prohibit." Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 WAKWIB ... IMO there will come a point where something happens. Sadly, it'll be after an accident or incident where there's been loss of life or limb. Because of that incident, BSA will be involved in a liability action. BSA will pay its claim, as it traditionally does, but then it'll drop that Chartered Partner like a hot potato. What can the local Council do? Not a heck of a lot. If there's something serious with a person, it can revoke a membership and tell someone not to darken BSA's door again. We've both seen that happen. If there's something serious with a Partner, it can drop the partner. Let's be honest: BSA relies on people of integrity self-policing. They're called VOLUNTEERS. Even there, BSA picks and chooses what it considers important to police. Think about advancement: Lots of volunteer resources go to advancement. Think about the Outdoors method: Lots of volunteer (and professional) resources go into our properties. Think about uniforms... not so much. Does that make sense? You coming to RT Thursday? We can talk more there. Link to post Share on other sites
Adam S 10 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I can see where Beavah infers that all of teh Guide to Safe Scouting is recomendations the very title indicates it is a "guide"... but it clearly states NOT PERMITTED, I do not see hwo that coudl be construed in anyway as a recomendation despite being in a "Guide". "Alcohol The following statement was approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America: It is the policy of the Boy Scouts of America that the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances is not permitted at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members." That was taken from http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss04.aspx The preface of the print edition states "The Guide to Safe Scouting provides an overview of Scouting policies and procedures rather than comprehensive, standalone documentation. For some items, the policy statements are complete. Unit leaders are expected to review the additional reference material cited prior to conducting such activities." This refutes that the content of G2SS is merely a recomendation but indicates that some of the content is most definitely policy and should not be interpeted as a suggestion. Regardless of it endangering anyone or not the fact of the matter is it is a rule. I have my sons in scouting partly because I fondly remember the sense of adventure and wonder I experienced on most outings but also because it is a framework for them to become better people. Why the heck would I sign them up to better themselves and then willy-nilly throw out the rules? I think the sane course of action is to suggest to the new parents to report that they should consider notifying their former Pack's Organization Head AND the COR of why they transferred to a different unit. After two weeks without a response they should consider notifying the District Executicve and CC the Council Safety & Risk Committee, If the alcohol took place on Council property I would suggest they CC the ranger in charge of the property also. You should not get involved other then to encourage them to report the incident. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The real answer is the G2SS is a guidebook with rules which are enforced at different levels. Bold print hard rules and regular print recommendations. Tour and fundraising permits are part of the rules and they are governed by Council. Same with council camps, get caught with booze at our camp and the ranger (a council employee) will escort you off the property. Some rules are enforced by District. Camporees and Day Camps are District events and the district staff enforces the rules there. Most rules are enforced at the unit level by the COs and Scouters who care and want to follow the rules. Fortunately that's most of us. Scouters have the responsibility to address problems when we see them in an appropriate way. If we see evidence of child abuse we report it. If we see drinking on camping trips we stop it. If we see unsafe behavior we point it out before someone gets hurt. Sometimes with minor infractions this can be done by pulling the offender off to the side and asking them politely to correct the aberrant behavior. Some things, such as child abuse got straight to the top, SE and LEO. If I saw a unit behaving badly I would have no problem pointing it out to the SM, in fact I did just that 2 months ago on a camping trip. The problem was solved quickly. If I saw a serious problem in another unit, such as drinking on a camping trip I would address that with the SM and depending on their response I might consider the problem solved or if not, pursue it with their council. I don't consider this "talking smack about another unit" I consider it doing the right thing. Council and National are the ones who are ultimately responsible for enforcing the rules. Just ask anyone removed for YP violations. But to say that BSA is just the publisher of guidebooks is a gross understatement. Link to post Share on other sites
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