Giving Up on Recruting Webelos

[John-in-KC 311]

SP,

 

Everything I mentioned is stuff I've seen units I'm in or serve do!

[dewASM 10]

I am the Scoutmaster of a young troop (less than 2 years). We left another troop to form this one. The pack is chartered by the same people as our old troop. This year the pack had 4 boys earn the Arrow of Light and the all joined our troop.

 

Now I would like to take credit for for a great presentation or some fantastic formula but the reality is that the boys came to us because the like and respect the boys in our troop. These young men aspire to be like the slightly older young men who make up our troop. My scouts have gone out of their way to befriend these young men, acknowledging them at school, scout or sporting events. They also strive to be polite and gracious to the parents of the Cubs. It makes an impression.

 

My point is, the best recruiter is not the Scoutmaster or the CC but the Scouts themselves.

 

So perhaps the effort should go into improving not only the relationship between the Troop and pack, but more importantly between the Scouts and the Cubs and their families.

[Thomas54 10]

 

John-in-KC

 

Den chiefs are a wonderful POR for a middle school scout without much homework. A high school freshman or sophomore in band or on sports will not have time to be at troop meetings plus den and pack meetings. Also we are so busy with our own troop activities such as camping, service projects, fund raising and assisting on Eagle projects that I have not pushed for den chiefs. I have offered these POR's and the two previous years we had some den chiefs but not this year.

 

I am not sure den chiefs would even help as we have been complimented by the pack parents at how pleasant and good at speaking our scouts are.

 

This is more a porgram issue than relationship. If we had a program that was more Webelos parent appealing then the relationship would be stronger.

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

Thomas, I disagree. I think this is very much about relationships.

 

You can have the most webelos-friendly program in town and if people don't like/trust/know you well, they still aren't going to join you. (Not to mention, having that sort of program would probably mean losing other boys who don't want Webelos III)

 

As it is your program sounds pretty good - like a boy scout troop should be - but you aren't able to "sell" your program because you don't have strong relationships with the prospective buyers. In fact, what you're saying sounds to me like you are blaming the buyers for not purchasing your product.

 

 

 

 

[Thomas54 10]

 

 

Our salesmanship is certainly inferior to the other troop's.

 

 

[83Eagle 11]

I agree: Boys who drop out of Cub Scouts (or knew better than to join in the first place) make better Boy Scouts

 

I am getting really tired of this disparaging attitude toward the CS program. Yeah I know, I can just click the "ignore" button...

 

Sadly, this type of attitude is something I run into out in the non-virtual world as well, and Im going to take a leap of faith and guess that other members of the "Blue Loop Group" run into this as well--being looked down upon by other Scouters as not being a "real" part of the program.

 

To borrow an analogy thats been tossed around here more than once, lets look at baseball.

 

Now I dont hear a lot of high school coaches saying that if only kids knew better than to join the little league program, they'd have a much easier time of recruiting.

 

Yet, boys often start playing T-Ball which is vastly different than regular baseball. Sure, the equipment is the same, but the rules are different. Kids dont pitch, they get to swing as often as they need to, teams bat through the roster without outs, everybody plays in the field at the same time even if you have 20 on the roster, runs arent scoredheck, youre lucky if you can get the kids to figure out what base to run to. Parents usually hover around the kids to tell them exactly where to go or what to do.

 

Pack family camping, anyone?

 

Then they move on to a game where parental involvement is still high but the skills are a bit more like real baseball. Parent-coaches still pitch (or use a machine) and there are extra parent-coaches in the outfield, behind the batter, and whatnot. Rules are designed to minimize blowouts and contain other features you wont find in real baseball.

 

Finally, about grade 5, boys move on to player-pitched ball. Coaches are on the sideline. Eventually they may join tournament teams that take far-away (and expensive) trips to play.

 

Now, as youth (and parents) move up in the program, they naturally assume that boys will have greater demands on their skills and take more responsibility. Parents don't complain in high school ball that they can't stand in the outfield with Johnny and tell him what to do.

 

Yet, T-Ball does not teach youth or parenst that. It doesnt say, Well Johnny, this is just a development program, and eventually youre going to have more and more responsibility, with the goal being to cross over into the Pony League, then Little League, then even high school ball. And high school ball is where the fun really happens, so stick with the program!!!

 

Im not also sure what the cross over rate is between programs but I do know that not every boy who picks up a glove at age 7 is going to be lettering in baseball in high school. And Im not sure how many boys who never picked up a glove before make the high school team, but Im going to guess its not a lot, and that most do have experience with a development program.

 

Now, despite this, do high school baseball coaches stay connected with the little league program, or do they mock it and wish it would go away?

 

Do they offer skills clinics for young little leaguers, or do they just wait for players to show up in the upper ranks and then complain that they know little about baseballcraft?

 

Do they require high school players to work with little league teams, serve as umpires, etc., even though it increases the demands on those players (Den Chiefs, anyone???)?

 

Maybe its time to quit assuming that boys who are Cub Scouts should just naturally want to become Boy Scouts, and that if they dont its somehow the fault of the Cub Scout program.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[Eagle92 110]

'83

Mixed emotions on your post.

 

In my neck of the woods, there has been an attitude that "Cubs don't need to camp," and, to be nice, benign neglect of the Cub program. And I know that some Cub leaders have been looked down upon by others. SctDad can confirm that one. Luckily I have not encountered some of the negativity that other Cub leaders have faced, but I was also involved witht he OA and district training, so folks knew me. While I cannot wait for all of my sons to become Boy Scouts ( esp when all are 14+ and can work summer camp all summer ). While most folks think I will move along with them, I may stay behind in CS since there is a need for dedicated leaders at this time. But that is still several years away as youngest won't be a TC for another 3 years.

 

BUT here is where I disagree, and it may be local on my part. The CS program needs more OUTING in Cub ScOUTING to paraphrase GBB

 

But I see hope on the horizon.

 

1) We now have a CS outdoor committee. We are trying to put the Outing in Cub Scouting, to paraphrase GBB. We are trying to get more Cubs camping. AND THEY WANT TO CAMP! (caps for emphasis)When I did my survey of the cubs at DC last year, #1 complaint was they didn't cook any food. That is changing. #2 complaint came from tghe Webelos: they want an overniter. We are trying to get a troop or three to sponsor an overniter.

 

2)One goal of the committee is to work with the OA to expand the Where to Go Camping book to include CS approved sites. Good news is the OA VC of camp promos is bucking the attitude and want to include CS stuff in camp promos and the book.

 

3) We are making the council camps more cub freindly. We now have row boats, during the off season, at the only camp that Cubs can go boating at.

 

4) We are doing more council activities for Cubs. Both outdoor and indoor. We are trying to develope a program where during the colder months where parents usualy don't want to camp, they can do such things as skating, bowling, climbing, etc,

 

Ok sorry for the rant.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

83 Eagle,

 

 

As a Scoutmaster, I always thought boys who had come through Cub Scouts and earned AOL had greater maturity and self control than those who had not.

 

Eagle 92,

 

 

You are a shrewd observer of the needs of the program. Any Scout troop should be GLAD to have an Assistant Scoutmaster working to make Cub Scouting a quality program and assist Cub Packs.

 

My bias would be towards volunteering with Scout Troops, but I work primarily with Cub Packs. A District Executive pointed out that "you can't have a youth program without YOUTH!" and about 85% of Boy Scouts were in Cub Scouts.

 

 

 

[Thomas54 10]

 

 

We volunteer at two cubscout camporees a year plus hold our own webelos/troop campout. Occasionally we have a family campout near a beach and we will invite and have had cub participation. We have had CO meetings and so forth. Each year I send over our calendar and ask for theirs.

 

It is not as though we have not reached out. Your baseball parable is the wrong one.

 

It is a fact that the webelos, at least the ones form our brother pack are very advancement oriented. Cool campouts and out of state summer camps are not luring these cubbers. However, these things are attractive to the neighborhood boy who wouldn't know whether a belt loop is a knot or a patrol game. They just want to get out and go camping. But the cubbers want an award after every troop meeting. Five years of this stuff have conditioned both the child and the parent to think along the lines of "when do I get to advance?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

As should be clear from my user name, I do not buy into any "bashing" of Cub Scouting (although I have not actually been a "CubScouter" for about 8 years.) To the contrary, I would like to see National actually accomplish something it has been trying to do for years, and that is to achieve a more seamless transition between Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting. I think one barrier to that is what is discussed in this thread: Parents become accustomed to the "Cub Scout" model over a period of almost five years, and then when it is time to select a troop (or decide whether to cross over at all) they are suddenly confronted with a totally different kind of program -- especially if it is a troop that is run right, with the boys leading the way. Another factor is that their sons have spent five years getting to the "top" as the lordly fifth graders in a program that starts in first grade, and now suddenly they are a bunch of 10- and 11-year-olds in with a group of older and larger kids -- and those older boys are running the show. It's a lot to take in at once. I saw this myself just last night at our troop meeting, with a group of parents accompanying their sons to their first troop meeting. A few of us leaders chatted with them as they filled out their sons' applications, wrote checks, were handed the troop schedule and summer camp information, etc. They had a LOT of questions -- and these were people whose sons had already decided to join the troop, so presumably this was at least their second opportunity to ask questions. A few of them did not seem to think their sons were "ready" for a week at summer camp away from Mom and Dad. A few of them seemed concerned about the age range within the troop, and with the idea that the primary leaders are the older boys, with the adults in more of a supervisory role. This is not the first group of parents I have seen who had these fears and concerns, although it seems to me that they are more common now than just a few years ago.

 

So what's the answer? I think part of it is, as Lisabob and others suggest, building relationships with the Cub Scout leaders and parents, and not waiting until they are Webelos. But, based on reading this forum and what I see in our troop, I think it might be helpful for National to address this issue as well. Maybe there is something that can be added to or changed in the Cub Scouting program to better prepare parents for what they are going to see when their son crosses over, and why the troop that seems to be the "most organized" is not necessarily the "best." The time to start this is not when they are "troop shopping", but much sooner than that. In other words, parents need to be "trained", but don't call it that or most of them will run for the hills. Somehow the message needs to be imparted to them, in an effective way, of where Cub Scouting fits into the overall sequence of programs offered by the BSA, and how the Boy Scout leadership model works. Of course, we can all try to do this in our own packs if we are Cub Scouters, or in nearby packs if we are troop Scouters. But some more help from National would be, well, helpful.

[83Eagle 11]

The central nut of my post is that the attitude of "The Blue Loop Group doesn't belong in Scouting," seen in these forums and in the real world, gets very tiring for those of us who commit ourselves to the program and feel we're an equal part of it.

 

kudu has posted about his difficulty or inability to recruit outgoing Webelos, versus non-scout 6th graders. But then he couples that with what a good idea it would be if Cub Scouting wouldn't exist or if boys "knew better than to join in the first place."

 

Well, shazam! With that kind of positive attitude toward Cub Scouts, is it any wonder that trying to recruit those same scouts is not successful?

 

My baseball analogy may be clunky, but I used it because it has been used here ad nauseum to support other arguments.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Thomas, as far as advancement is concerned, once a parent truly understands the Boy Scout advancement program, they should actually see it as an improvement over Cub Scouts. (In my opinion, anyway.) In Cub Scouts you get one "major advancement" per year. (I understand about arrow points, belt loops and instant recognition beads, but actual rank advancement is once a year.) In Boy Scouts, the boy can advance as fast as his interest, energy, and the troop program will take him. In our troop, some boys make First Class within a year after joining and some don't, but the important thing is it can be done. That's FOUR "major awards" (counting Scout) in one year. Isn't that enough?

[dkurtenbach 348]

1. You don't want Scouts who wouldn't fit in with your troop's vision and style. (I found that out the hard way.)

2. You DEFINITELY don't want parents who wouldn't fit in with your troop's vision and style. (Ask Stosh.)

 

It may feel bad to not be successful recruiting Webelos Scouts, but you may be dodging more than a few bullets. And if your program is successful by your definition, who cares? Your troop has to have a great program for the Scouts it has, not the Scouts it wishes it had.

 

And when you do have visiting Webelos, don't do anything special for them. For the good of your troop, you are inspecting them -- not vice versa. Show them the real troop warts and all, and explain why it is the way it is -- but not as an apology. Turn the tables on them: Explain that you only want Scouts (and parents) who have the interest and attitude compatible with your troop, and ask if these visiting Scouts have the right stuff. If they aren't enthusiastic about camping and trips, if they prefer a school environment with adults setting schedules for them and pushing them to earn badges, and they just want to go along for the ride, there are plenty of other troops for them to look at.

 

Dan K.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Interesting comments, NJ Cub Scouter!

 

 

As I was reading them, it got me thinking that at our Blue and Gold dinner or another suitable opportunity, we should be asking Scoutmasters or perhaps SPLs, to come in and talk to Cub Scouts and parents about "The Promise of Boy Scouts," or whatever.

 

Give the boys and parents a better idea of what is ahead, and why.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I was da fellow who got Kudu goin' eh?

 

No intent to "bash" cub scouts on my part, just observation along da lines of NJCubScouter. I think 83Eagle's baseball analogy fails in that when yeh look at Cub Scouting, da major features of boy scouting aren't present. Even in T-ball, yeh swing at balls and run bases and field grounders. It's recognizable as baseball, with accommodations for younger fellows.

 

The disconnect in many cub packs from boy scoutin' is that, aside from uniforms and promises, the rest isn't recognizable to youth or adults as scouting. Outing is replaced by derbies. Youth leadership/responsibility is wholly absent. Advancement is recognizable in form, but in substance is completely different. There is no patrol method.

 

So unlike da baseball bit, where yeh recognize you're playin' ball but just getting better at it, Cub Scouting is fundamentally different from boy scouting. That disconnect means that it's possible to have kids and parents who really like cub scouting not care for real, proper boy scouting at all. Da Webelos 3 crowd Thomas and others talk about. And vice versa. Some kids and parents who tire of cub scouting's load on parents and more indoor nature might be very well suited for boy scouting .

 

Now, I can't say whether overall havin' the two programs be so different is good or bad. There's lots of fun and growth in cub programs. It's just that da "farm team" thing doesn't work anywhere near as well as it could if things were a bit more integrated.

 

I do sorta like dkurtenbach's notion of turnin' the tables. Yeh explain that you're the elite, traditional, high-standards program, and that it may be that their precious Johnny isn't ready for advanced placement scouting. That's OK, there are remedial programs out there to serve da needs of boys who are developmentally behind and not yet ready for independence. .

 

Heck, these days if yeh have an admissions test and reject some applicants, yeh might get those parents clambering for your program!

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)