No Older Boy Scouts?

[Eagle92 110]

Hal

Yep DEs are paid to raise units and members. There is supposed to be a 12 step process that the DE and the potential CO go through to get a unit started. Follow the process and you will get a good unit with a strong foundation. Problem is you do have DEs who are only concerned about the $ and not about the scouts. instead of doing it right and following the steps, they take shortcuts that result in poor units. And when a new DE comes into the district, he not only has to try and start new units, but also problem solve the failing units, especially if the commissioner corps is little to non exisitant. "ashes to ashes, dust to dust, when volunteers won't the professional must." trust me been there, done that, got the patch.

 

 

I believe Eagledad has hit it somewhat on the head. You do have a lot of leaders who do not allow the scouts to develope into leaders. I do disagree with the women statement as I've seen men do the same things. The one thing both then men and women had in common were they were CS leaders. FWIW from my experiences with them, they view BS as an extension of CS and carry over their leadership. While some of them eventually get it, usually because of training and coaching from experienced leaders, those starting new units do have a hard time making the transition. Especially since it not always possible to get a boy lead troop from the get for your first duties will be getting everything organized and everyone trained. So it takes soe time, and also some habits need to be broken.

 

 

As for how to retain older scouts, I do like the concept of the Venture patrol, and wish it was used more. Again from my experience it is used very infrequently. I remember when the Leadership Corps program was being used. Yes we did everything with the troop, but some things were left for the LC to do alone. An example was when the troop went to Vicksburg Military park, the LC did the cross Country trail, while the rest of the troop did the road trail. So I've seen the VP continue that way of doign things.

 

Program is definitely a key to keep older scouts. having clear expectations is another. Working aroudn their schedules ia a third. Trust me that last one can be a pain in the buttocks, especially when you are tyring to plan activities and the 9 scouts in the VP go to 6 different public and private schools with different calandars, but it is doable.

[sheldonsmom 10]

I think part of this problem goes back to the discussion on JASM. Our boys make Eagle at 15 or 16 and are then pushed (or shoved) into the JASM slot. No more patrol leader, no more "being one of the boys", no more being just a Boy Scout: now you are an adult leader but you aren't really an adult yet either. Some troops basically escort the boys out the door after they make Eagle because they are "trained" and "responsible leaders". They expect them to be adults but they are still only 16 years old. Do we expect other the 16 year olds to be adults? Yes, they have shown responsiblity and maturity by completing the requirements but they are still boys!!!!!!!!! My Eagle son is a den chief (by request for a second year), a JASM in his troop, and just earned his bronze in the Venturing Crew he joined (and helped form). He is least active in the troop because they do not seem to want or need him. He is expected to act like an ASM and not "interfere" with the troop. How can he interfere when he is a MEMBER of the troop?

[BrentAllen 10]

I would like to add to Barry's post, expanding on the leadership development, to include character growth. Both leadership development and character growth take place in the patrol setting. Unfortunately, the patrol method is misunderstood, or completely ignored by many Troops. Just putting patches on shoulders, constantly forming ad hoc patrols for campouts, and selecting PLs for campouts, are not the patrol method.

 

From Baden-Powell's Aids To Scoutmasterhip:

 

It is important that the Scoutmaster recognize the extraordinary value which he can get out of the Patrol System. It is the best guarantee for permanent vitality and success for the Troop. It takes a great deal of minor routine work off the shoulders of the Scoutmaster.

But first and foremost: The Patrol is the character school for the individual. To the Patrol Leader is gives practice in Responsibility and in the qualities of Leadership. To the Scouts it gives subordination of self to the interests of the whole, the elements of self-denial and self-control involved in the team spirit of cooperation and good comradeship.

 

But to get first-class results from this system you have to give the boy leaders real free-handed responsibility - if you only give partial responsibility you will only get partial results. The main object is not so much saving the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy, since this is the very best of all means of developing character.

...

The more he gives them to do, the more they will respond, the more strength and character will they achieve.

 

...

 

The object of the Patrol System is mainly to give real responsibility to as many of the boys as possible with a view to developing their character. If the Scoutmaster gives his Patrol Leader real power, expects a great deal from him, and leaves him a free hand in carrying out his work, he will have done more for that boy's character expansion than any amount of school-training could ever do.

(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Eagledad 2779]

>> believe Eagledad has hit it somewhat on the head. You do have a lot of leaders who do not allow the scouts to develope into leaders. I do disagree with the women statement as I've seen men do the same things.

[Bob White 20]

"Let me ask, The Mission of the BSA is to develop men who make Moral decisions based from the Scout Law and Scout Oath."

 

Actually the mission of the the BSA is much more than that. You left out some very crucial words.

 

The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

First its not about developing men its about preparing young people. The BSA is not trying to effect just their adult lives but their entire lives.

 

And secondly it is not about "baseing" the decisions on the values of Scouting but "instilling" them with those values so that they are a natural elements of their character and not a list they run through when they need to make a decision.

 

I think these are very important differences. I agree with Barry that this is what every adult leader is supposed to be achieving with every scout, we are not a camping club.

 

 

 

 

[emb021 16]

"I'm curious - which "other countries" do this? That is not what I've seen in my limited exposure to international scouting."

 

All of the Commonwealth nations do this, along with most of the ones I've read about: Americas, Asia, Europe.

 

Most associations break up their program into 'sections'. Loosely, what most do are these levels:

 

Ages 6-10, the 'cub section'

Ages 11-14, the 'scout section'

Ages 15-18, the 'senior section'

Ages 18-25, the 'rover section' (NOTE, some countries have this, many don't)

 

The senior section may have different options, such as Sea Scouts and maybe Air Scouts. But you DON'T see overlaping sections, and rarely read of a scout section running from 11/12 to 18.

 

Read up on other scout associations. I think the articles on Wikipedia are pretty good in this regards. The above is VERY common. I'd hate to say all associations do it this way, because I think there may be some that don't. But most do.

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Well, I guess South Africa is the exception (they are a Commonwealth nation, are they not?). We visited several different Scout groups while traveling there in 2004, but we never saw or heard any division based on age, or the term "Senior" Scouts. The biggest difference I saw was the Troop Scouters (our SM) were much younger and didn't have a son in the program (they weren't married, didn't have any kids). As they aged out of the Troop, they became Assistant Troop Scouters for a few years and then took over as TS.

[Bob White 20]

Again emb01, all you have shown is that others do it differently. What you do not offer any evidence of, is whether they do it better. Can you show any measurable benefit of their program over the BSA program that is directly related to the difference in program levels.

 

As an example, how many countries that use the program level differences you identified have more youth members because of it than the BSA?

 

I believe the answers is ...none, is it not?

 

Several of your neighbors may paint their homes differently than yours. Is that how you determine what your home should look like?

 

 

[emb021 16]

"Well, I guess South Africa is the exception (they are a Commonwealth nation, are they not?). We visited several different Scout groups while traveling there in 2004, but we never saw or heard any division based on age,"

 

The Scout Association of South Africa have the following sections:

 

* Cub Scouts, 7-10.5

* Scouts, 11-17

* Rovers, 18-30

 

 

"or the term "Senior" Scouts."

 

As I tried to make it clear in my first posting, different associatons call this section different things. 'Senior Scouts' is the old name for it. Other names used include "Venture Scouts", "Venturers", "Explorer Scouts" and the like. South Africa doesn't seem to have this, per say.

 

[emb021 16]

"Again emb01, all you have shown is that others do it differently. What you do not offer any evidence of, is whether they do it better. Can you show any measurable benefit of their program over the BSA program that is directly related to the difference in program levels."

 

"As an example, how many countries that use the program level differences you identified have more youth members because of it than the BSA?"

 

"I believe the answers is ...none, is it not?"

 

So you think the fact that they end 'boy scouting' at 14 is why their numbers are comparable lower then ours????

 

Is it all about numbers?

 

That other scout associations do this shows mainly that ending 'boy scouting' at 14 is not a crazy idea, but one that is fairly standard.

 

Is there any reason NOT to do so? Most of the 'reasons' seem silly. They seem more along the lines of 'that's how we've always done it', 'I need the older boys to run the troop', 'the boys need to be older/more mature before they earn Eagle', etc.

 

Keep in mind that ALL the 'older boy programs' were started mainly to address what was known as the 'older boy problem', something that even B-P saw: when boys got around 15 or so, the standard boy scout program bored them. Also, it was probably hard to recruit older boys into scouting if they had to deal with the 11-13/14 year olds.

 

These were some of the issues that lead to the formation of Varsity Scouts: a basic modification of the boy scout program, but one aimed specifically at the older youth.

 

My own view is this:

 

* end boy scouts at 14.

* keep varsity scouts for those boys 14-18 who still want to do 'boy scouting' stuff, earn eagle, etc.

* keep Venturing/Sea Scouting as is also.

 

Ending the overlap would end the 'venturing is trying to steal my older boys' etc. I think ending the overlap would increase the size of both Varsity Scouts and Venturing. Also, councils would start doing a better job of promoting these programs to the 14-18 year old youths, both scouting drop outs and those who had never joined (and wouldn't, if it meant having to deal with the 'little kids').

 

 

 

[eagle90 125]

Barry -

Thanks for some of the most well thought out, profound posts I have seen on this forum. Well done!

 

Dale

[BrentAllen 10]

Varsity Scouts is an entirely different program, aimed at sports programs. They can still earn ranks, but think soccer practices for meetings, and soccer games for campouts. Two very different animals. Boys who aren't interested in sports wouldn't have any reason to join. I have yet to run across of Varsity Team in our council.

 

Baden-Powell said it best - "...the Patrol System. It is the best guarantee for permanent vitality and success for the Troop."

 

"If the Scoutmaster gives his Patrol Leader real power, expects a great deal from him, and leaves him a free hand in carrying out his work, he will have done more for that boy's character expansion than any amount of school-training could ever do."

 

IMO, the older boys get bored and drop out because they aren't given any real responsibility, any real ownership of the program. In Troops where they are given this, older boys stick around and run the program. The problem isn't with the age of the Scouts, it is with the way the adults run the Troop. I have seen the older boys running the program well in South Africa and here in Atlanta - it works, when given a chance.

[Bob White 20]

Emb01 writes "So you think the fact that they end 'boy scouting' at 14 is why their numbers are comparable lower then ours????

 

No, not at all. I think that to suggest change based on what other countries do is a poor reason unless you can show some actual benefit for the change. Different is not automatically better it is just different.

 

You and others say that the problem is the program level structure, so as evidence you show that other countries do it differently. What you fail to include is any evidence that their way produces better results. All you offer is that it is different.

 

One would expect that if the problem is in fact the program levels and these countries have solved the problem, then there should be a resulting MEASURABLE effect.

 

No one has yet to show that. I get it, they do it differently. So what? Show us how that helps them in any way.

 

Is it all about numbers? It's all about measurable results. Do you know another way to measure without the use of numbers?

 

 

Scouts stay in the program in units that actually follow the program.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagle92 110]

BW,

While numbers can be an effective way to measure a program, they can also be played with, especially by pros who are in it only for the money. So some care does need to be taken with them. Trust me on that one.

 

EMB

In reference to yours idea on what other associations do, didn't the BSA did that in the 40s and 50s with Exploring? Sorry I don't knwo as much as I should on that period, but maybe someone with someknowledge could enlighten us on how it worked.

 

Now in referecne to older scouts and program, I can tell you about my expereince. At fourteen I went to a NSJ and did a 50 Miler in Canada. After that trip, local campouts didn't really compare, but I did attend a few campouts until 16. Once I was old enough to work, I was busting my buttocks to support myself, so most weekends I was not able to camp. I also didn't go to summer camp as I needed to work and support myself. The way my job worked, if I had to work in two week increments, so if I miss one week, I had to miss a second. Not an option.

 

Now attending meetings was a different story. It was expected of me to attend and teach the skills I knew to the younger guys. I was given specific tasks, given reasonable objectives, and was left to my own resources. It worked out well.

 

Againthe way I see it, the older scouts can still be active with a troop. They need clear responsibilities, clear goals, and expectations. And yes soemtimes they need to do a few things with just the older guys. The few trips I did go on after Jambo until I started were ones in which the Leadership Corps had special activities going on while the rest of the troop did their thing. usually these were hiking campouts that the older guys did the more difficult trails on, or combined multiple easy trails on.

[emb021 16]

"Varsity Scouts is an entirely different program, aimed at sports programs. They can still earn ranks, but think soccer practices for meetings, and soccer games for campouts. Two very different animals. Boys who aren't interested in sports wouldn't have any reason to join. I have yet to run across of Varsity Team in our council. "

 

Actually, that's incorrect.

 

The mistake too many people make is thinking that Varsity Scouts is just a sports program. Its not. Its essentially the boy scout program with some changed to it to appear to the older boy, incorporate sports and high adventure. But to claim its just a sports program is wrong.

 

"In reference to yours idea on what other associations do, didn't the BSA did that in the 40s and 50s with Exploring? Sorry I don't knwo as much as I should on that period, but maybe someone with someknowledge could enlighten us on how it worked."

 

No.

 

The BSA added older boy programs, but alongside Boy Scouting. They never ended Boy Scouting at 14 or 15. It ended at 18. Senior Scouting (Explorer Scouts, Air Scouts, Sea Scouts) were an added option for the boys when they reached 15 or 14.