Controversial ASM appointment

[Beavah 205]

Holy smoke, was that just BobWhite encouragin' crv-66 to persist in violatin' da rules?

 

As click23 points out, da process for selecting quality leaders requires consideration and vetting by a committee. Either da troop committee or a steering committee or subcommittee charged with that task. It is not somethin' a CC should be doin' on his own.

 

That's not to say that in some units, particularly where da CC is also da COR, it isn't done that way for good reason. LDS units, where selection of unit leaders is a "calling" by da IH, is an example of a CO that chooses not to follow da BSA's practice. That is a CO's right, and it works OK in some units.

 

Generally speakin', though, da BSA's recommended/required practice of having a committee vet and select unit leaders for recommendation to the COR is the way to go. As we see in this case, when a CC tries to do it all himself, it's a recipe for adult conflict in the unit. Adult conflict over leader appointments is a really bad thing for a unit. It hurts boys and hurts programs. Parents, da CO, and the boys all need to have full confidence in anyone who is wearin' an ASM or SM badge. Da committee also makes for a much more thorough vetting process, that remembers to consider things like the input of current scouters, potential liability and PR risks to the organization and whatnot - things that a CC on his/her own might forget. It also prevents a CC from doin' somethin' ill-advised, like appointing her husband SM and her older son Treasurer.

 

Always best to read and understand all da materials, not just rely on one line on an application form (where there ain't much room to offer instruction!).

 

From everything crv is sayin' it sounds like da best way to continue to accommodate this young man is as a youth member, not an adult leader.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[jtanner 10]

Perhaps you could consider alternate arrangements that would address the concerns of the other leaders and parents but still provide an outlet for this young man to be involved in the program.

 

I was previously involved in a unit that 14+ Assistant Scoutmasters (troop size around 45-55) and each ASM had specific oversight over certain aspects of the troop. As such, some adults were more hands on with the scouts than other adult leaders who worked more "behind the scenes".

 

Maybe you could consider a committee level position or ASM role that worked with equipment or communications so that the young man may continue to be involved in the program but minimizes the direct interaction of this adult leader with the youth.

 

While the focus of a Scout troop should ALWAYS be the youth members involved, as adults we shouldn't overlook the importance that the same principles and guidelines can play in the development of other adult leaders. I haven't met too many brand-new "green" leaders that didn't need guidance and direction, this young man shouldn't be any different.

 

Just a thought... but I agree, tough situation to be in. Let us know how it turns out.

[crv-66 10]

I'd like to thank everyone for their input on this matter. I now have a much better frame of reference to address this issue moving forward. I've got a committee-level meeting tommorrow to discuss this appointment, and the controversy it has raised.

 

The past adult leaders I've approved have been shoe-ins for their jobs - no controversy whatsoever. Our troop does not have (nor do I believe it ever had) a committee to review new leaders. I was told by the past CC that it was my responsibility to do this, so that's what I've been working off of.

 

The lesson learned here is that a selection committee is desperately needed, so that it's not one person making all the decisions. I'll be sure to work with our COR to set this up moving forward.

 

As far as what to do now, my inclination is to recommend what jtanner suggests - moving him into a committee-level position, out of direct contact with the boys.

[click23 66]

Here is the link to "Selecting Quality Leaders" http://old.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf

 

He is not old enough to be a MC.

[crv-66 10]

From the committee handbook:

 

"You can have a full committee with a reasonable amount of recruiting effort. The first five positions are essential for quality troop operation. Fill those positions first. There is no maximum limit to the number of troop committee members. The minimum number is three adults ages 21 or older."

 

I intrepret this as you need to have at least 3 committee members that are 21 or older. We have that. Can additional members be younger than 21?

[Docrwm 10]

Bob White wrote:

" Doc, no one said they had to accomodate, I said that turning 18 doesn't mean they do not need to. If they accomodate a blind scout there is no reson to believe that once he turns 18 if they approve him as an ASM that he will no longer be blind or need accomodations.

 

If crv's concern is the ability of the individual to do the job then he should not approve him, but he should not change his mind soley on the pressure from others. "

 

Agreed, sorry if I misunderstood. We've seen pressure to allow people with different abilities to do whatever they want - even when if they were not disabled they would not qualify. Its a part of the tension in advocacy vs. those responsible for programming. I've spent my life trying to improve the opportunities and abilities of those who are different and/or disabled but sometimes good old fashioned common sense does need to be applied. Again, sorry for my misunderstanding.

 

-Robert

[Bob White 20]

Sorry crv, the only adult role for ages 18-20 is that of an ASM. Committee members must be 21 or older.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I was ready to endorse BobWhite's suggestion of continued communication, education, counseling, etc., until I went back and re-read the thread and focused on this by crv-66:

 

We've had several instances in the past where, as a scout, he had behavior problems, the SM saw it or was aware of it, and did not always take action. With that history, I don't have confidence he would take corrective action in the future with him as ASM.

 

I think that's the deciding vote, so to speak. If you as CC do not have confidence in the SM's ability to handle this sensitive and difficult situation correctly, you should not put him in the position of having to handle it. It also makes me wonder what else (if anything) you may have confidence in the SM's ability to handle, and what (if anything) you might want to do about it.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I hate it when I leave out the word "not", it tends to have an unintended impact on the meaning of a sentence.

 

The last sentence of my post should read:

 

It also makes me wonder what else (if anything) you may not have confidence in the SM's ability to handle, and what (if anything) you might want to do about it.

[Docrwm 10]

I've been told in a private email that my position on the roll of the CC in being the sole person responsible prior to the IH of the CO to approve adult volunteers is in error. I'm always learning and open to being wrong and learning what the right answer is, but I'd like some specifics from BSA documents to tell me that the Committee Chair is only the signature stamp for the Troop or Pack Committee and not the person to be held responsible as an individual for certifying an adult volunteer to the CO and IH for their approval. The Commissioner training I took indicated that only the CC and IH could fire a volunteer - not any committee. I've looked in the manuals I have for references or specifics on who approves adult volunteers and each says the CC signs and/or approves.

 

This is taken directly from the current adult volunteer form from BSA National (obtained online from http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-501F.pdf):

 

"APPROVAL REQUIREDUNIT SCOUTERS

Unit committee chairman approves all adult personnel except the chartered organization representative

and committee chairman.

Chartered organization head or chartered organization representative. The chartered organization

representative is approved by the head of the chartered organization. Following approval by the unit

committee chairman, all other adult unit personnel must be approved by the head of the chartered

organization or the chartered organization representative.

Scout executive or designee must approve all unit Scouters." 20-501F

 

My read of this indicates that no committee has any role whatsoever in the adult volunteer approval process. It seems to me that its clear that three individuals must make personal decisions and be responsible for those decisions in this process for unit adult volunteers (CC, IH, and then the SE or designee). I am, always, open to being corrected by reference to appropriate BSA documents.

 

YIS,

 

-Robert

[gcan 10]

I'm just gonna throw another opinion into the mix... keep in mind I have no BSA basis, fact, or rule citations, this is just my opinion!

 

although I think Guy has something there! Send him to training. If he does it, then let him be ASM. techincally. He's more of an oversized SPL, but he feels he's the ASM, the nay-sayers are placated because he's still supervised. If he doesn't do the training, he can't be ASM, period.

 

Now, our pack just bridged out a whole special needs den of 12- 7 ranged from mild autism to severe aspergers. Some kids I could see as a future leader, some i couldn't. It had nothing to do with thier disability, (ex. the one kid with no DX was the hardest to deal with!). maybe he, as a person, can do it and maybe he can't. there's only one way to find out!

That said, sure he has some past behaviors that raise little red flags. But how long ago are we talking here? Were they basic boys-will-be-boys kinda things (ie snowball fight cum wrestling match), or dos he have a Hx of abbherent behavior?

It sounds like he is very high functioning, and able to think rationally and understand on an appropriate level. I personally would sit down with him and discuss previous incidents with him, get a feel for how he would handle the same situation now. What steps has HE taken to behave approrpriatly? Ask dad- any therapy since the poor behavior? was it all at once (the onset of puberty can totally trigger lots of new and unexpected stuff!)? is he now medicated to control the impulsive stuff?

 

Sounds like you ahve faith in this kid- I just wanted to say thanks for trying! I really do hope all is well and he turns out to be an asset (or at least not a liability) to your troop. You certainly are helping the boy- and at minimum if the other adults learn something from this than he did help the troop after all!

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

No one has asked the obvious question yet. What does his father, the Scoutmaster, say. Is he on his son's side in this? If so, are you prepared to replace the Scoutmaster if you decide not to accept the young man as an Assistant Scoutmaster? Do you have a potential replacement lined up?

 

Have you even had a conversation with the Scoutmaster about this?

 

Calico

[NeilLup 13]

Scouting exists for one reason -- to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth. Everything that we do is for that purpose. Leaders are selected as leaders only because they can improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth.

 

When this young man was a Scout, he was on the receiving end of this improvement. So even if he represented a challenge to the Troop, his continued involvement can be significantly justified as improving his citizenship, character and fitness is one of the purposes of Scouting.

 

That changes when he becomes an adult and, perhaps sadly, that change is precipitous on his 18th birthday. At that point, the only reason that he (or anyone else) should be a Scout leader is because they can contribute to the citizenship, character and fitness of the boys in the Troop. If so, and on balance the things that he can contribute outweigh the potential problems that he brings, then it makes sense for him to be an ASM. If not, then he should not be.

 

It can be extremely painful to have to tell the SM that while his son was welcome as a Scout, he is not welcome to be an ASM.

 

The mother suggests that you should "wipe the slate clean." You can't do that and if you do, then you need to wipe clean all the good things that he has done too. In that case, why would he be appointed an ASM. Not also to think like a lawyer, but if some problems did arise, his previous history would come into any lawsuit or other adversarial discussion. Not only would his presence be questioned, but your judgement and the judgement of the COR, etc. in approving him would be questioned also.

 

It borders on a certainty that, at some point, some problems will arise. Do the contributions that this young man can bring outweigh those problems? I am not suggesting that he should not be an ASM. Rather, I would suggest making the classic list on a piece of paper with a line vertically down the center. On the left are his pluses -- the specific tangible demonstrated things that he can bring to the troop which will help improve the citizenship, character and fitness of Troop youth. On the right are his minuses including the potential for problems. You then need to decide if the pluses outweigh the minuses.

 

Sadly, improvement of him probably should not be a consideration now that he is an adult. Most of we Scout leaders enjoy tremendous personal benefit from Scouting. But that's not why we're chartered as leaders.

[fleetfootedfox 10]

Doing what's right is often difficult. That's something that the adults need to set an example on, even when it creates hard feelings. It sounds like you think the right thing to do is to turn down this young man's application. You should not feel you are kicking him out of scouting by doing this, because he could join a venturing crew. Maybe it would also be best for the SM to move on with his son and become a venturing crew adviser.

[crv-66 10]

Calico: "No one has asked the obvious question yet. What does his father, the Scoutmaster, say. Is he on his son's side in this? If so, are you prepared to replace the Scoutmaster if you decide not to accept the young man as an Assistant Scoutmaster? Do you have a potential replacement lined up?

 

Have you even had a conversation with the Scoutmaster about this?"

 

His father is very much in favor of his son becoming an ASM. He seems to be a fairly pragmatic person, but nobody knows for sure how he'll react. Our SM has been in this position for something like 8 or 9 years. He's very good at running the troop, so if he did resign, it would be a big loss for the troop. With that said, I feel we have several people who are capable and (probably) willing to take over if necessary.