Removing Scoutmaster from Position

[Lisabob 13]

If this man is not, by your own admission, doing a poor job and instead, he's just annoying sometimes, I'd ask you to think long and hard about trying to oust him.

 

Sometimes, people who have been in one position for a long time become entrenched. That can be a bit of a shame and from what you've written so far it sounds like perhaps this SM is in that position. However, people often end up in that position precisely because they are willing to do all the hard work that goes along with the position, when no one else is. Consequently, you have to decide if you have someone waiting in the wings who is both capable and willing to take on the job if you are successful in removing this person against their will. Most of the time, the answer is "no." And you need to consider the big-picture consequences of your action. If you remove him and the troop folds because no other adult is able to be the SM, how has that served the youth in the troop?

 

There is also "blowback" to consider (unintended, negative consequences of your actions). Say you seek to remove him and in the process, alienate many of the other leaders in the troop so they all quit. Now you won your battle but you've sacrificed the good of the troop to do so. Worse, say you try this and fail. Now you're going to have an angry and perhaps bitter SM, you may have caused a serious internal rift among leaders, parents and even boys who felt forced to choose sides in your little battle, and these wounds are likely to fester for some time. That's really bad for everyone.

 

From what you've posted thus far, the SM may not be aware that some of his decisions bring a perception of favoritism or unfair, even arbitrary interpretations with them. It might not be a bad thing for the SM to be more aware of that fact. But these are not reasons I would use to try to oust him; forced removal is a last resort to be held back unless really necessary and it doesn't sound necessary here.

 

So next time boys come to you complaining about the SM's choices, look them in the eye, tell them it is unfortunate they feel as they do, and tell them that if they have a concern about the SM they should really talk to HIM, not you about it. This should direct the concerns to the person who can address them and also put a stop to any unreasonable under-currents of discontent. Sometimes people seek out what they think will be a sympathetic ear, but be sure you aren't providing incentives for boys who just don't like the SM's decisions to undercut him. He, after all, has to deal with them at every meeting and camp out. You don't.

[awesome1_in_cc 10]

Source,

 

It sounds to me that your SM may have a bit of a "delegation" problem and is trying to do it all himself including making all the decisions. Been there, done that and it didnt work to well for me. My Assistant SM's came to me and asked why I even needed them if I was going to do it all myself and didnt want their input.

 

Honestly, this got my attention pretty quick and we had a "re-alignment" of responsibilities for the unit leaders.

 

As part of this, we now have a monthly meeting of the SM and all the assistants to discuss the "educational opportunities" that may exist in the unit, share ideals and discuss items that may need to be "tweaked" in the unit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still have to make the final decisions on issues but I now rely heavily on my team to help make these calls. We dont always agree on everything, but we now have open communication with each other and are better able to back each other up if needed.

 

I don't know if this approach will work for you or not, but it sure has made my life as SM so much better!!! I have even added additional ASM's to spread the "work-load" around even more and things on the adult side are running so much better since we eliminated the "bottleneck" which was basically me.

 

Good luck and please keep your focus on the scout's and what is in there best interest as may have already suggested.

 

[FireKat 10]

It takes a big man to admit he made a mistake, awesome1_in_cc, I applaud your honesty and ability to look at your action clearly. I hope Source's SM will do the same.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I'm still wonderin' what the issues really are, eh?

 

The SM made a judgment call about the application of an internal troop rule about rank for SPL. Dat's like arguin' balls and strikes in my mind. Was it his own kid who won the election, so folks are resentful because of that?

 

Then the SM upheld the G2SS transportation policy. Da kids didn't like it because they wanted to drive. So what?

 

There's gotta be somethin' more here, Source, doesn't there? Perhaps somethin' like awesome's delegation example?

 

Beavah

 

[awesome1_in_cc 10]

Beavah,

 

Reading between the lines in Sources post I see the issues they are having as these:

 

First, the Assistant Scoutmasters and Scouts are frustrated by the fact they feel that they have no say in their Unit.

 

This I believe is a result of the emotional attachment the current SM has to the unit that he started. This is totally understandable as it takes a lot of time, energy and emotional investment to start any kind of new unit. This often results in a don't "touch my baby" attitude.

 

My basis for this is the following comment: Basically it is a He started the troop, he is the SM, he is the ruler.

 

The solution as I see it are for the SM and ASMs to sit down with the scouts and find out what they want for their unit. After all, as unit leaders we work for our Scouts and not the other way around, right?

 

Will this happen with Sources Unit, I dont know but a shared vision among the Scouts and Leaders is critical to the success of any unit as I see it. They should all sit down and ask the question, are we all headed the same way? Do we all want the same things for the unit?

 

If the answers to those questions are yes, then the unit leaders need to approach the SM and ask him what can we do to help achieve the vision!!

 

I believe the rest of the comments posted are more symptoms of the larger problem and as you put it they are like arguing' balls and strikes.

 

Source please correct if I am wrong, as noted I have been before.

 

[Source 10]

awesome1_in_cc you are 100% correct. Infact we have had times that the SM was not arround and all the ASMs made a decision that would be best for the boys and when the SM comes along he will often over rule what was decided for one reason or another. He does not alway make the best choices for the boys or for the leaders, but like I said HE started the troop and it is HIS troop.

 

J

[Beavah 205]

I dont know but a shared vision among the Scouts and Leaders is critical to the success of any unit as I see it. They should all sit down and ask the question, are we all headed the same way? Do we all want the same things for the unit?

 

Yah, I absolutely agree with this, eh?

 

And that would be a much better way to approach things than quibblin' over obscure features of the Transportation Guidelines.

 

Usually, though, differences in vision come out in objections to bigger issues, eh? Da ones mentioned seem really trivial to me, and ones that very few SMs would delegate (and probably shouldn't delegate!). That's why I'm confused.

 

I'm wonderin' if Source can give us some other examples of "sets his own rules that may be different than BSA rules and says he has the final say." Since both of the examples so far were the same as BSA rules, where he should have the final say.

 

It might be a SM who is tryin' to get or keep a troop on the straight-and-narrow, but running into some resistance from some boys or parents who want things to be more "loose." In that case, he's allowed to be "the ruler".

 

Edited to add:

Source, can you for example tell us what the ASM's decision that "would be better for the boys" was? The one the SM overruled?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Source 10]

OK here is one example. Before winter camp the ASMs where planning the winter camp campout. Everything was going well because the SM was out for a meeting. When the SM came to the next meeting he decided since it was so cold and the weekend of winter camp was going to be cold he would let the boys vote on if they want to go or not. So simple majority won and it was voted that we would not go to winter camp. There where plenty of adult leaders going and we has many boys who wanted to go, but since it was a simply majority vote by the boys the SM decide NOONE GOES.

 

This has been done on some of our regular month campouts also. We have a campout planned every month much like most Scout Troops, BUT if weather is cold or maybe rain in the forcast the SM will allow the boys to vote and if its a NO majority then the Scouts who wanted to go are left out. I believe this is due to the fact the SM really does not like to camp ESPECIALLY if it is cold or raining. Some of our campouts in the past have also been cut short because of rain or weather.

 

I remember when I was a Boy Scout we went camping every month rain or shine or cold and we did not pack up a day early because of bad weather.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Source

You say that since it was very cold the Scoutmaster asked the scouts to vote on participating. Why do you suppose he did that?

 

It would seem to me if he "wanted to be the ruler" he would have just said "we are not going". Why do you suppose he asked the scouts to guve their opinion in the form of a vote?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, there's a bunch of new questions in my mind, now.

 

Why were the ASMs planning the winter campout? Where were the Patrol Leaders?

 

What I might consider is whether an individual patrol still wants to go winter camping. In that case, they should be helped and encouraged to run it as a patrol outing, eh? Da SM doesn't have to be there.

 

Once a patrol or two starts having fun and success with bad-weather campouts, the others will come around.

 

Or perhaps yeh don't have patrols? Or a PLC?

 

Beavah

 

[Source 10]

Beavah, Where were the patrol leaders ??? LOL now thats funny in our troop. Patrol leaders dont make decision or run the patrols in our troop. Thats the SMs job.

 

[Hunt 11]

It's awfully hard to diagnose problems when you can only get a few glimpses through a periscope. However, I will make a few observations: If the SM founded the troop, he probably has a good relationship with the CO, and you're not likely to be able to get him removed over management style. If he's "ruling" the troop and making all the decisions, you really have only two options---try to work with him to persuade him to let go a bit, or go elsewhere. And going elsewhere is not necessarily a failure--it can just be a recognition that you don't fit with this SM's style.

[BuffaloSR793 10]

Source,

 

This sounds real familiar. What size Troop are you? I'm betting your a small Troop, don't recruit much and do virtually no High Adventure.

 

What kind of Committee do you have? I'm guessing virtually none.

 

 

Just sounds very familiar.

[Eamonn 61]

Source

In a lot of ways (Not all) The Scoutmaster you assist kinda reminds me of myself.

Our PLC met once a month, rarely if ever were ASM's invited.

While the men who were my ASM's were my friends and we did meet most Sundays after church for adult refreshment.Where I in a very nice way informed them what was going on and again in a very nice way let them know what part of the plan they would be involved in.

Of course I valued their ideas and their input. But if we (The Troop) were working on Car Maintenance that was what we were doing.

I remember one Easter Camp where we had a lot of very young Scouts, it was very cold and never stopped raining. I gathered the PL's and kinda suggested that going home and breaking camp early might be the best thing to do. They (The PL's) were happy to go along with this.

I never really thought to ask the ASM's (I think I might have told them what I was thinking.)

To my mind I was the Scoutmaster, the buck stopped with me!! The safety and well being of the Scouts was my responsibility. To be very honest I really didn't care what the other adults thought about my decision. They really never had a vote or a voice.

At one time we had a very young ASM. A super nice guy, the Scouts in the Troop thought he was really cool. He was very close to their age, knew what was in?? Had a really cool ear-ring (Back then it was a new thing!!) At times the Scouts would use him as a sounding board. Someone was unhappy about something they would go and tell Cliff (His name.) I suppose Cliff could have won the popularity vote if he had taken sides. But he didn't. The Troop had a plan and that was the plan. Very often he would tell an unhappy Scout to go and talk to his PL or the SPL.

Most times he would come to me and make sure I was aware of what was going on.

The role of a ASM is to assist the SM.

The Scouts in a Troop watch the adults all the time all of us need to be sure that the example we set is a good one.

Adults need to show that the leaders are united.

If you are going to make plans when the SM isn't around? Maybe a quick call asking him if that's what he wants, is a better way of getting it done?

If you want him to communicate more with you? Maybe you need to communicate more with him?

Of course I don't know this guy.

It could be that he might be the wrong person to be a SM?

But my feeling is that as long as he is and you are a ASM, he does deserve your loyalty.

If you really feel he doesn't deserve your loyalty? Maybe the best thing for everyone might be that you look for a SM that does? Or a Troop that might select you as the SM.

If that happens? You can select your style of leadership, but remember the buck will stop with you and at times it can be very lonely at the top.

Sorry if this comes off sounding a little harsh.

I do wish you the best of luck.

Eamonn.

[Source 10]

Buffalo, you are right. We actually had about 25-30 boys registered last year, but we only have about a dozen at meetings and even fewer at campouts now. ZERO High Adventure. The troop was started just a few years ago with a few boys and grew to about 30 in a short time and now seems to be dropping of. The troop does no recruiting other than word of mouth.

 

We do have a Committee but they don't do anything.

 

BUT, I will admit. I have stepped up again and I am trying to voice my ideas and the other ASM's are also and the SM is actually starting to listen a little more to us and the boys. He has actually set real patrols and lets the PLs and APLs run their patrols. I hope it isnt too late since last year we where haveing meetings with 25 boys or more a meeting and now we are lucky to get 10 or 12. BUT we do have alot of adult leaders. we have 8 - 10 leaders at every meeting and a min. of 5 or 6 at every campout.