Scout Spirit... Redux

[Stosh 3452]

Once again I fail to see the point being made.

 

"The Adult Association is described as follows, at least in my copy of the SM HB: "Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positivie role models for the members of their troops. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives."

 

Where does it say anywhere that the SM makes decisions on how the patrols, troop or PLC are to be run? Sounds like an appropriate statement where the SM and other adults SUPPORT, ENCOURAGE and TAKE AN INTEREST in the boys. No where does it say they do one bit of work, decision making, directing or controling.

 

"How many success stories have we heard where a boy comes from a single-parent family with no father figure, and Scouting made a huge difference in their lives? Those kind of stories aren't going to happen without Adult Association! "

 

Not a problem here, but having a SM or adult role model is scouting is a VERY small part of the whole package known as SCOUTING.

 

"And don't give me the "BOR & SM Conference is taking power away from the PL's" argument. The SM conference, as described in the SM HB, is a conversation to see if the boy is ready to advance. Same thing with the BOR. It is also a great time for the SM and Committee members to take a pulse on the troop - how are things going, what needs to be improved. Teaching boys how to interact with adults is a very important skill - more so than learning how to tie a square knot."

 

Taking the pulse and placing judgements are two different things here. What if the BOR decides the advancements were not met and the boy needs more practice or he doesn't show scout spirit on a level they expect or any one of a hundred other interferences adults may attempt to do to undermine the patrol method? These kinds of things do happen in the non-boy-led programs and they do change the makeup of their troops.

 

One hears constantly the adults on this forum starting out their forum posts: "What do I do?...." If it's a boy-led program, the boys are not in harm's way and its challenging the boys, then the answer is ALWAYS: DO NOTHING! let the boys figure it out for themselves. If they need help, they'll ask. Until then do nothing but observe and let the boys be.

 

I don't have a problem with the program of the BSA, but I surely have a problem with how so many of the SM and other adults interpret for themselves the program. Unless they are meddling in the affairs of the boys, they just don't seem to be thinking they are doing something for the boys.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad 2785]

From Kudu

>>Start by telling this problem Scout the truth: a BSA Troop is NOT "boy-led," it is adult-led. BSA adults do not believe in B-P's Patrol System, so they took all the evaluation powers away from the Patrol Leaders and gave them to themselves. BSA leaders call their Patrol Leader powers "Adult Association." >Patrol elections are a BSA invention dating back to the period before the BSA used the "Patrol Method," when the Handbook for Scout Masters advised "Scout Masters" to keep their Patrol Leaders completely powerless and PLs had only a symbolic "team captain" function.>BSA elections have evolved into Patrols as "Leadership Development" mills where the Scoutmaster trains the most popular boys how to be "leaders.">If it doesn't matter how the program is set up then you must agree that the BSA's Eight Methods of Scouting are of no real importance, but the Adult Association Method, which strips the Patrol Leader of his authority over Tenderfoot through First Class advancement and sets up adults as both moral and technical judges of a Scout's Advancement> Eagledad writes:

 

I don't trust you Kudu

 

Your continued personal attacks are especially inappropriate in a thread about Scout Spirit.

 

Kudu

[BrentAllen 10]

Stosh,

I was refering to a statement from Kudu, about his assumption of Adult Association. Please show me where I mentioned anything else you posted about what an SM does. All of that is explained in the SM HB - again I ask, do you even have a copy? It explains what happens if a BOR feels a Scout isn't ready to advance. Sorry you don't like it, but it is the BSA method!

Question - in your boy-led, patrol-only method, who ensures the 3 Aims are met and the 8 Methods are used?

 

If you think adult role modeling and mentoring in Scouting is a very small part of the program, then you are missing the whole boat. Here are just two examples where an SM made a huge difference in the life of a Scout. Imagine if the SM had just sat back and did nothing, not wanting to interfere with the boy-led patrols.

Frank Logue was in my Troop, same age as me. This is from a sermon he gave a few years back.

 

"Heres one way I have seen grace passed along in my own life. When I was growing up, I was always in scouting. I started out in Cub Scouts by attending my brothers meetings as my Mom was the den mother. When I was finally old enough to be a Cub Scout, I joined and did not unjoin all through elementary school, junior high, high school and my first year of college. Scouting was good to me. I got to see the world, backpacking our west, traveling to England and Sweden for the World Jamboree and more. But most importantly, I was in troop that considered itself to be a ministry. The leaders were passing along the grace they received. They had been given undeserved favor from God and they were passing it along to us.

 

My Scoutmaster was Gene McCord. Well north of six feet tall, Mr. McCord was imposing for a young scout. Mr. McCord was at times a rigid taskmaster who demanded your best of you. But over time, I came to see how Mr. McCord loved us. When I was 16, I had a couple of incidents Mr. McCord found out about. One time, I was driving a car while Mark, another buddy of mine from scouts, was throwing bottles at signs and mailboxes, just to hear them smash. Another time, I got mad at Mark and dropped him off in the middle of no where. Now, no one but me and God and Mark knew about these incidents and I know for a fact that Mark didnt tell.

 

In each case, Mark and I were seen and someone reported it back to Mr. McCord. He pulled me aside at a meeting and layed it all on the line. Mr. McCord reminded me that I was not that kind of boy and would not be that kind of man. Mr. McCord had given me lots of unmerited favor and love already and right when I was least deserving of love he showed me tough love. In no uncertain terms, Mr. McCord made it clear that I would not continue down the new path I had set for myself. There were no threats. There were no ultimatums. By force of will, he was blocking the way. I had no choice but to stay on the straight and narrow path.

 

Many years later and just a few years ago, I was asked to speak at a dinner given for Mr. McCords retirement as a scoutmaster after something like 30 years. I looked around at Mark, and all my fellow scouts from years before. I recounted this story and then I said, How can we possibly thank Gene McCord for all he did for us. The answer was clear. Paying him back is not possible or even the right idea. Saying thank you is not enough. The way to thank Mr. McCord is to pass along the love he showed us to another generation. Mr. McCord always connected his leadership in Scouting to his faith in God. He knew that he could not earn or deserve Gods love. Instead of trying to pay back God, he passed Gods grace along to others."

The entire sermon can be found at: http://kingofpeace.org/sermons/sermon-123001.htm

 

I heard Jeff Foxworth say something similar. He grew up without his dad, after his parents divorced and his mother moved back in with her parents. Jeff will tell you he is where he is because an SM invested some time in him. He will tell you he could have easily taken the wrong path in life, but didn't, all because his SM was willing to listen to him, to give him some direction, to challenge him and to expect a lot from him.

 

Without Adult Association, as described in the SM HB, these things would not happen. Stosh, you can go ahead and put a lot of other words in my mouth, but what I'm saying is clear and simple.

[Kudu 186]

Eagle Dad writes:

 

words are funny sometimes and actually yours sound angry

 

I admit to contempt for the meanness of the religious right, and yes I do think bigots are funny!

 

What you are doing is called "projection," Barry, or as kids say "It takes one to know one."

 

NPR did an interesting piece in which they recorded short clips of conservative Republicans all using the same talking point of describing their enemies as "angry." Tune in Fox News and you will be surprised at how common your projection of anger technique is.

 

People should be asking themselves "Why exactly is Eagledad so obsessed with Kudu?" and "Can we get back to the topic?"

 

Kudu

 

[Stosh 3452]

"I was refering to a statement from Kudu, about his assumption of Adult Association. Please show me where I mentioned anything else you posted about what an SM does. All of that is explained in the SM HB - again I ask, do you even have a copy?"

 

Hmmmm, cheap shot, but I'll answer anyway. After 20 years as an adult leader, the last 9 doing double duty in two units, I've perused a few handbooks along the way. If nothing else, I collect them and have read every edition since 1911. I have also read much of scouting's history and it's development over the past 100 years. I can guarantee my scout library is a lot larger than yours. I have at the present 10 scout books on my computer desk right now, a pile of 12 more on the floor within sight, three book shelf units one in my living room and one in my dining room and another in the basement. Two books are lying on my night stand and the 1930-31 Boy's Life editions I was reading this afternoon are on my coffee table. Do I get to count the two training manuals on the back seat of my car THE BOYS WANTED TO BORROW? (Emphasis mine)

 

Actually the amount, variety and range of reading I do allows me to view current day quips and quotes, power bites and snipes with a greater depth of understanding than just the few words on a printed page. When you know the history of something, you know it's life.

 

Maybe now we can move on to something other than questioning my reading ability.

 

"It explains what happens if a BOR feels a Scout isn't ready to advance. Sorry you don't like it, but it is the BSA method!"

 

Nope, A Scout is Kind. Not from anything that supports my understanding of BSA methods. If a BOR is a last shot to pass muster and a group of adults hold the judgment trump card over the work of the boys, then the troop BOR people have failed to understand what a BOR is all about. First of all no scout is sitting in on a BOR unless a wide variety of different people have signed off on all the requirements and the boy has had a chance to chat/visit with the SM who if s/he's doing it right will be the first to congratulate him on his progress and accomplishment. If the BOR doesn't like what they see:

 

1) They were not there to witness the boy's efforts and accomplishments when he was fulfilling the requirements.

 

2) The SM failed miserably by allowing a boy to get through his SMC just to be humiliated by a group of adults who say his efforts weren't good enough.

 

3) The committee failed miserably in selecting qualified members of the BOR who should have been praising this boy, encouraging him in his efforts, giving him support as he moves on to his next rank, and trusting the involvement of a lot of people prior selection of these BOR members.

 

4) the BOR members have failed miserably to understand that when the boy comes in and sits down he has by all BSA standards fulfilled his advancement requirements and they have no business questiong the judgment of others in front of the boy when he is sitting there expecting his earned praise and instead getting crapped on by adults.

 

5) In no way is such practice accepable according to any BSA policy I have read anywhere.

 

I have sat in on Eagle BOR's where the boy was so nervous he couldn't get out the 12 Scout Laws correctly. Does that mean the BOR people should have sent him "back to the drawing board"? Fortunately not everyone has read the SM Handbook as well as others have. They ribbed him a little, told him to sit down, relax, and take a deep breath. They assured him he had already earned his Eagle and this was just a formality so that they could be the first to congratulate him on a job well done. Then they went on to chit-chat casually about his scouting experience and his eagle project. The boy left that BOR walking on clouds. That is what scouting is all about! Not rules and regulations that forgot what B-P started in the first place.

 

"Question - in your boy-led, patrol-only method, who ensures the 3 Aims are met and the 8 Methods are used?"

 

The boys do. They can and are trusted to fulfill their responsibilities. They pick it up in the training literature that they go through and then teach to the other boys.

 

"If you think adult role modeling and mentoring in Scouting is a very small part of the program, then you are missing the whole boat. Here are just two examples where an SM made a huge difference in the life of a Scout. Imagine if the SM had just sat back and did nothing, not wanting to interfere with the boy-led patrols.

Frank Logue was in my Troop, same age as me. This is from a sermon he gave a few years back.

 

Personal testimonies are not proof of anything. They do nothing to prove anything other than the boy had a good experience in scouting. I can give you (including my personal story) bad experiences with adult involvement in the lives of the boys. And with the ratio of boys Eagling compared to the number jointing in the first place, there seems to be more negative experiences than positive ones.

 

"Without Adult Association, as described in the SM HB, these things would not happen. Stosh, you can go ahead and put a lot of other words in my mouth, but what I'm saying is clear and simple."

 

I don't have to put words in your mouth, I just quote what you said in the first place.

 

Adult Association can be interpreted in different ways. 1) Adult-led, directed, maintained and established, or 2) adults that encourage, support, guide, and trust the leadership development of young boys growing into adulthood. You will find that adults that allow the boys to own their own leadership for real will garner the most acolades.

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Stosh,

Congratulations on your large collection. Me, I go for quality, not quantitiy. First editions, that sort of thing.

 

It's obvious you know more than me. I just go by the SM HB, as I was taught in training.

 

Rock on, brother.

 

Brent

 

[Kudu 186]

BrentAllen writes:

 

Kudu writes: "I agree that human nature is the same, but what aspects of adult behavior are encouraged depend on how the program is structured: the BSA has the adult-led method called "Adult Association" which is a collection of powers taken away from the Patrol Leaders and given to the adults by the adults."

 

Yes, the BSA was founded on a profound ignorance (or rejection) of Baden-Powell's boy-led Patrol System.

 

This tradition started back when the BSA instructed "Scout Masters" to divide up the troop by the Scouts' body weight and height, and to keep the Patrol Leaders powerless:

 

The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master

 

Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan (Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st Ed., p. 85,). See:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm

 

This is the exact opposite of real Scouting which uses the Patrol System. The heart of the Patrol System is the "Court of Honor" which runs the Troop, including Advancement.

 

Americans might wonder why the term "Court of Honor" in the United States refers to an award ceremony rather than to the governing body of Patrol Leaders. In the early BSA, testing was not done by the Patrol Leaders, or the Scout Master, or even the Troop Committee. A Scout's Scout Master could not be trusted to administer these written examinations impartially! Testing was done by a committee of adults at the local BSA Council.

 

This committee was called (you guessed it) the "Court of Honor"!

 

"All examinations wherever there is a local council should be conducted by the Court of Honor and not by the Scout Master in charge of the troop. Where there is no Court of Honor, it is best to obtain the aid of another Scout Master or some other known man of the community to serve as such a court. Where the local Scout Master gives examinations to his own Scouts there will always be charges of favoritism, and a general feeling of discontent will be engendered before very long under such conditions (Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st ed., page 127).

 

Scout Masters were instructed to impress their Scouts with the awesome importance of these adults to whom the BSA had given the Patrol Leaders' powers:

 

"It should also be the general rule that the Scout should make formal application for an examination. This besides impressing the Scout that the examination is a matter of consequence, will furnish a valuable record of the work accomplished by the various Scouts (Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st ed., page 127).

 

Unlike Baden-Powell's model which made a distinction between "education" (self-directed learning) and "instruction" (the school lecture model), the BSA Court of Honor included a comprehensive battery of written examinations for each "rank" plus additional oral and/or practical examinations. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/064-Scout_Exams.htm

 

An additional perversion of the Patrol System under the new Scouting monopoly included "Inter-Patrol Contests!" This might conjure up visions of Patrols in campaign hats cheering in the open air as they compete with each other to claim mastery of outdoor skills. You would be mistaken. "Inter-Patrol Contests" were the ranking by adults of all the Patrols in a Council by calculating the written test examination scores of the members of every Patrol! Patrols were even penalized when one of their members received a low exam score:

 

"Any Scout failing to receive a percentage of at least 50 will be marked "FF" and his patrol will have to forfeit 10 points. He will not be allowed to take the next examination, but may take anyone succeeding that (See reference, above).

 

Eventually the powers stolen from the Patrol Leaders were were transferred to the adults in the Scout's own Troop.

 

The Adult Association is described as follows, at least in my copy of the SM HB: "Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of their troops. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives."

 

Why do BSA adults need the "muscle" of examining and judging a Scout in order to make this "profound difference" in his life?

 

And don't give me the "BOR & SM Conference is taking power away from the PL's" argument. The SM conference, as described in the SM HB, is a conversation to see if the boy is ready to advance. Same thing with the BOR.

 

In real Scouting the Troop is boy-led, not adult-led. When asked to submit to a formal adult-led examination of their Scoutcraft skills or "Scout Spirit" a Scout should politely reply,

 

"Did you ask my Patrol Leader?"

 

It is also a great time for the SM and Committee members to take a pulse on the troop - how are things going, what needs to be improved.

 

They don't need to pretend to be Patrol Leaders to find out those things!

 

Teaching boys how to interact with adults is a very important skill - more so than learning how to tie a square knot.

 

No, Scouting is all about the square knot. Forget all this made-up "Purpose of Scouting" crap, Scouting is a Game. Period.

 

Boys get tested by adults all the time at school, they don't need more schoolmarm interaction with adults at Scouts. If you need to take powers away from Patrol Leaders for your BSA Adult Association Method, then why not go all the way and make 18 or 21 the minimum age to be a Patrol Leader? It would certainly be an easy transition to make in Troops where every Patrol has an "adult mentor" hanging around the Patrol all the time.

 

And Kudu, I'm still waiting to hear which B-P quotes are phony. Or do you wish to retract that statement.

 

I'm still waiting to hear the sources of the quotes that I listed already. In the meantime you can add the all-time most famous phony BSA Baden-Powell quote:

 

"Scouting is a Game with a Purpose"

 

This phony profound "purpose" thing is usually used by adults who need an excuse to take powers away from the Patrol Leaders because they think that interaction with adults is more important than the Game of Scouting.

 

Kudu

 

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Sorry, but Scouting is not just a game. Baseball is a game. Scouting most definitely is a game with a purpose, whether B-P said it or not.

 

"Scouting is a school of citizenship through games, for boys and girls."

B-P, Aids, WB, foreword

 

"Don't let the technical outweigh the moral. Field efficiency, backwoodsmanship, camping, hiking, good turns, jamboree comradeship are all means, not the end. The end is character - character with a purpose.

And that purpose, that the next generation be sane in an insane world, and develop the higher realisation of Service, the active service of Love and Duty to God and neighbor."

B-P, "The Scouter", March 1939

 

I'm working on the others.

[Kudu 186]

BrentAllen writes:

 

Sorry, but Scouting is not just a game. Baseball is a game.

 

No, as soon as you allow this adult purpose thing to justify substituting adults for Patrol Leaders, you are no longer playing the game of Scouting as Baden-Powell describes boy-run, so his quotes no longer apply to your adult-run pastime.

 

You could ruin baseball in a similar way if you required all players who cross home plate to have their "School Spirit" tested, undergo an interview with the coach of the other team to examine your "Team Spirit", and a board of review by members of the community (to determine if you represent the "ideals" of baseball) all before the "requirements" of crossing home plate are counted as a "score".

 

Kudu

 

[ajmako 10]

Kudu, my friend, once again you've let your evangelism get the best of you. You made a nice argument, but unfortunately the people you have an argument with are long gone. While it might be quite interesting to see how the BSA circa 1910 was different than B-P circa 1910, no one should have to point out that the BSA has changed quite a bit since then. Many of the things you find so egregious are no longer the way things are done today in the BSA.

 

Granted, the BSA still misses the point in some ways, but the same can be said of other Scouting organizations. So what? We can fix that by being helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind to our fellow Scouters in providing advice. We can help them by sticking to the subject of the thread and rather than rant about how the first edition of the SM Handbook got it all wrong, point out ways in which we can all get it right.

 

Perhaps the BSA is wrong in having a Scout Spirit requirement, wrong in having the SM decide whether the requirement is completed or not, and wrong in making it a topic of discussion during the BOR. In that case perhaps it would be better to explain why it is wrong instead of giving long sermons about how different BSA was from B-P ninty-some years ago. I don't mean listing a bunch of quotes from B-P, but explain in your view why Scout Spirit should not be a requirement, why the SM should not decide its completeness, or why it should not be discussed at a BOR. We who operate exclusively within the BSA cannot remove the rank requirement, and we cannot eliminate Scoutmaster Conferences or Boards of Review. We can use these things to our advantage, and I think that would be a far more constructive discussion.

 

By that I mean, of course, ways in which we can achieve the aims of Scouting the way B-P intended within the system established by the BSA. Please don't answer "it can't be done," that's a cop-out.

 

I'll leave everyone with just one B-P quote:

"We are all different and we must not think that because other fellows seem inferior to us, they are to be despised.

"For example, you may be a good athlete and Smith may be a poor one, but very good at books. Don't despise him, but 'live and let live'."

--Baden-Powell, Rovering to Success(This message has been edited by ajmako)

[Kudu 186]

ajmako writes:

 

"We who operate exclusively within the BSA cannot remove the rank requirement, and we cannot eliminate Scoutmaster Conferences or Boards of Review. We can use these things to our advantage, and I think that would be a far more constructive discussion...By that I mean, of course, ways in which we can achieve the aims of Scouting the way B-P intended within the system established by the BSA."

 

How do you "measure" Spirit in a Scout's everyday life? True Spirit is not like a square knot, which can be "demonstrated" at will. Some Troops ask for a note from a Scout's parents or religious leaders. Other Troops count attendance, correct uniforms, and use this requirement to block Advancement to "trouble-makers."

 

No method in which an adult evaluates a Scout is as efficient a learning experience as making a game out of a Scout's reflection on his own behavior. Those who prefer Baden-Powell's divine spark approach to Scouting can use my "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" to help their Scouts focus on how their own behavior is already an example of Scout Law. This is what B-P called "education:" learning by drawing from Scout's own experences (B-P defined this as the opposite of "instruction").

 

See the US Scouting Service Project:

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/docs/spirit.html

 

The Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt can convert a Scoutmaster Conference into a Baden-Powell encounter in which the Scoutmaster does not judge the Scout's "Spirit" as a condition for advancement, but expands the Scout's understanding of the words of Scout Law.

 

When a Scout sits down to write, he is always surprised to find how many of his actions are already an example of Scout-like behavior. If you approach it in the spirit of a game, the Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt can turn this Rank Requirement into a source of joy, pride, and growth.

 

ajmako writes:

 

"giving long sermons about how different BSA was from B-P ninety-some years ago"

 

The ridicule of the discussion of history is an appeal to ignorance.

 

Human nature is exactly the same as it was "ninety-some years ago." B-P invented Scouting as an alternative to the same social forces that now insist on turning the Ideals of Scouting into adult-enforced "obligations."

 

To understand the history of the Court of Honor is to understand OldGreyEagle's disconnect between the pretty words about Scout Spirit that he finds in the BSA Handbook and the way that religious conservatives turn these Ideals into obligations.

 

Kudu

 

[ajmako 10]

Kudu wrote: How do you "measure" Spirit in a Scout's everyday life?

 

When I was SM, I didn't measure Scout Spirit, at least not formally. I watched the Scouts interact with each other and with other people in the course of doing Scouting while he was working toward advancement. When it came time for an SM conference, I sat down with him and talked to him about things he had learned, how he was doing, and what his plans were for the next rank. I rarely had trouble finding out if he had done his best to live by the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life. I rarely had a hard time seeing if a Scout had grown during the course of earning a rank. It's right there if you take the time to look. But, if I was doing SM conferences today, I might just ask him if he thought he had done his best to live by the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life.

 

While the Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt is a fine thing and no doubt does a great job getting a Scout to see for himself, what's wrong with simply getting to know the Scout and opening your eyes to the growth in his behavior? What's wrong with having high expectations for him and working with him to achieve those expectations? Why is it necessary to argue and debate over aims and methods and history in order to figure out how to know if a Scout is acting like a Scout?

 

Kudu continued: B-P invented Scouting as an alternative to the same social forces that now insist on turning the Ideals of Scouting into adult-enforced "obligations."

 

Really? I thought he invented Scouting as a remedy to such "national inefficiencies" as irreligion, indiscipline, irresponsibility, want of patriotism, seflishness, corruption, disregard of others, cruelty, crimes of violence, lunacy, thriflessness, poverty, loafing, shirking, low moral standards, gambling, illegitimacy, disease, ill-health, squalor, infant mortality, mental deficiency, and physical deficiency. Things that are caused by disregard of the social forces I assume you are talking about (I really can't tell).

 

I was pretty sure that B-P chose the opening words of the Scout Oath specifically because a boy who said them would view them as an obligation--a promise he had to keep in order to be worthy of being a Scout. Have we lost that in the BSA? Yes, to some extent, but it's not lost forever. It can be regained without tearing everything down or arguing over every minute point.

 

Kudu continued: To understand the history of the Court of Honor is to understand OldGreyEagle's disconnect between the pretty words about Scout Spirit that he finds in the BSA Handbook and the way that religious conservatives turn these Ideals into obligations.

 

If you say so. Being a religious conservative I for one am not trying to turn the Ideals into obligations. I am trying to get young men to accept the Ideals and recognize it's an all or nothing proposition. I don't have to understand the history of the Court of Honor to understand what the Scout Spirit requirements are supposed to be or how they are supposed to be evaluatued. I just have to look in the Boy Scout Handbook, on page 108, which OldGreyEagle quoted.

 

His question was how a Scout leader can justify setting attendance percentages or other obstacles to advancement as part of Scout Spirit when the handbook clearly says it's not the Scout leader's job to "measure" Scout Spirit. The answer is, the Scout leader can't justify it. They have to either misunderstand what is meant, remain ignorant of what is meant, or purposefully ignore what is meant by Scout Spirit. That is human nature, and it's not unique to the BSA.(This message has been edited by ajmako)

[Kudu 186]

ajmako writes: "what's wrong with simply getting to know the Scout and opening your eyes to the growth in his behavior? What's wrong with having high expectations for him and working with him to achieve those expectations?"

 

What's wrong? It is a description of your progress, not his.

 

Ask yourself: why do you need adult-judgement Scoutmaster Conferences, adult-judgement Boards of Review, and adult-judgement Scout Spirit requirements in order to talk to Scouts about these things? It is because these "high expectations" are all about what you want, and most adults need sanctions against Scouts who think that Scouting is a game.

 

ajmako writes: "Why is it necessary to argue and debate over aims and methods and history in order to figure out how to know if a Scout is acting like a Scout?"

 

Because different aims, and different methods, and different history, make for very different Scouts. If you can earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on your back, and if the adults have all the important Patrol Leader powers (which they call "Adult Association"), then you are more of a Cub Scout than a real Scout, no matter how weepy the adults get when they talk about "expectations and growth."

 

Kudu continued: B-P invented Scouting as an alternative to the same social forces that now insist on turning the Ideals of Scouting into adult-enforced "obligations."

 

ajmako writes: "Really? I thought he invented Scouting as a remedy to such "national inefficiencies" as irreligion....Things that are caused by disregard of the social forces I assume you are talking about (I really can't tell)."

 

If he wanted the adults to judge the Scouts on the causes of these national inefficiencies, he could have worked within the religious drill brigades that existed already. It was a straight-forward matter: accuse the boys of the sins that cause the national inefficiencies, and then evaluate their progress in overcoming these sins.

 

I was pretty sure that B-P chose the opening words of the Scout Oath specifically because a boy who said them would view them as an obligation--a promise he had to keep in order to be worthy of being a Scout.

 

The idea was that a Scout took on these obligations himself on his honor to do his best (with Court of Honor pressure when he concentrated more on his own personal advancement than on helping others advance).

 

ajmako writes: "Have we lost that in the BSA? Yes, to some extent, but it's not lost forever. It can be regained without tearing everything down or arguing over every minute point."

 

I don't see how that is possible without deregulating the Scouting industry, but for those who want to "work for change from within the BSA," then understanding how the game of Scouting is supposed to be played does require rethinking every one of the so-called "Eight" Methods of Scouting.

 

I do recognize that this is very frustrating for Scouters who click on "Scout Spirit" threads just to look for creative ideas for turning the Ideals of Scouting into adult-enforced obligations: "How can we use the Scout Spirit requirements to punish Scouts who find our meetings and campouts boring?" Or "how can we use the Scout Spirit requirements to withhold advancement from Scouts who refuse to wear the BSA's butt-ugly pre-Switchback "Scout Spirit" Scout Pants?" :-/

 

ajmako writes: "If you say so. Being a religious conservative I for one am not trying to turn the Ideals into obligations."

 

Turning the Ideals of Scouting into obligations is the official policy of the BSA.

 

ajmako writes: "I am trying to get young men to accept the Ideals and recognize it's an all or nothing proposition."

 

Huh? An all or nothing proposition? Scouting is a game. This all or nothing "purpose" thing is your problem, not his.

 

ajmako writes: "I don't have to understand the history of the Court of Honor to understand what the Scout Spirit requirements are supposed to be or how they are supposed to be evaluated. I just have to look in the Boy Scout Handbook, on page 108, which OldGreyEagle quoted.

 

To understand the history of the Court of Honor is to understand the reason for the hypocrisy that exists between page 108 and every other page that includes a Scout Spirit requirement, a Scoutmaster Conference, or a Board of Review.

 

ajmako writes: "His question was how a Scout leader can justify setting attendance percentages or other obstacles to advancement as part of Scout Spirit when the handbook clearly says it's not the Scout leader's job to "measure" Scout Spirit. The answer is, the Scout leader can't justify it. They have to either misunderstand what is meant, remain ignorant of what is meant, or purposefully ignore what is meant by Scout Spirit."

 

We agree in principle on this point, but the BSA takes the Patrol Leaders' advancement powers away from them and gives them to the adults. The adults can give the sign-off sheet back if they want, but clearly the Scout Spirit requirements are intended to allow adults to evaluate the Scouts' "Spirit." This is not some kind of misunderstanding.

 

ajmako writes: "That is human nature, and it's not unique to the BSA."

 

Scout Spirit requirements are unique to the BSA.

 

Kudu

 

[ajmako 10]

Kudu writes: What's wrong? It is a description of your progress, not his.

 

That's your interpretation, not mine. I don't judge a Scout's progress according to my own standards or anything like that. I set high expectations, develop a relationship with each Scout, and I watch each Scout grow. When it comes to signing off Scout Spirit, I ask myself if this Scout has done his best, based on what I know about him, to live by the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life. Sometimes I ask him if he thinks he's done his best. And then I sign it off.

 

Kudu writes: Ask yourself: why do you need adult-judgement Scoutmaster Conferences, adult-judgement Boards of Review, and adult-judgement Scout Spirit requirements in order to talk to Scouts about these things? It is because these "high expectations" are all about what you want, and most adults need sanctions against Scouts who think that Scouting is a game.

 

Kudu, a Scoutmaster Conference is not about judgement. It's about talking to a Scout, getting to know him, finding out what he's learned, what he's been up to, and what he wants to do in the future. I can't help it if some Scout leaders use it as an interrogration, or insist on X amount of participation. The BSA manuals do not describe the SM conference that way.

 

A Board of Review only marginally judges a Scout. It's primary purpose is to make sure Scouting is doing its job. Once again, I can't help it if some Scout leaders use it as a final exam or as a means of pulling the rug out from under a Scout. Once again, the BSA manuals do not describe the BOR that way, and in fact they forbid that sort of thing.

 

The simple fact is I don't need SM conferences, BOR's and Scout Spirit requirements to talk to a Scout. They are something the BSA requires for advancement, so I have to deal with them. They exist for a reason, and if I was inclined to figure it out I would, but I'm not. It's unfortunate that you assume I mean something far different by "high expectations" than I do. Having scanned most of the BSA manuals over several editions, taken most of the BSA training, and managed to survive a few years as a Scoutmaster, my idea of "high expectations" is not much different than it ever was. My idea of "high expectations" fits very nicely with everything the BSA says about SM conferences, BOR's and Scout Spirit requirements. I can sum it up in a simple quote. Perhaps you'll recognize it.

 

"Expect a great deal of your boys and you will generally get it."

 

Kudu writes: Turning the Ideals of Scouting into obligations is the official policy of the BSA.

 

And then he writes: Huh? An all or nothing proposition? Scouting is a game. This all or nothing "purpose" thing is your problem, not his.

 

Actually, it's Baden-Powell's idea. Yes, you're right, the original idea was that a boy would take on the obligation of the Oath, Law, Motto, etc. himself. And everything I've read by B-P makes it pretty clear he expected that Scout to understand there was no picking and choosing. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. You can't pick and choose which points of the Scout Law you will be. You can't decide you agree with the Motto and the Slogan, but you'd rather leave the Oath and Law in a box under the bed. That's what I mean about being "all or nothing." Wanna be a Scout? The Ideals describe what a Scout is/does. Be or do them and you're a Scout.

 

Kudu writes: The adults can give the sign-off sheet back if they want, but clearly the Scout Spirit requirements are intended to allow adults to evaluate the Scouts' "Spirit." This is not some kind of misunderstanding.

 

Kudu, I'm afraid it is some kind of misunderstanding. The actual text of the Boy Scout Handbook concerning how Scout Spirit is to be determined has already been quoted. The Scoutmaster Handbook describes a Scoutmaster Conference of very nearly everything but evaluating Scout Spirit. What it says about Scout Spirit is this: "The conference is a valuable opportunity for a Scoutmaster to discuss with each Scout his activity in the troop and his understanding and practice of the ideals of Scouting." Nothing there about evaluating, just helping the Scout see.

 

The Scoutmaster Handbook goes on, in describing Boards of Review, to say: "Each review should include a discussion of ways in which the Scout sees himself living up to the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life." Again, no evaluation of Scout Spirit, which would certainly be problematic since the requirement has to be completed before the BOR can happen. The Troop Committee Guidebook says nothing about evaluating Scout Spirit. The Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures manual says: "The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidtate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals."

 

I've searched everything I could think of or have access to as far as official BSA literature and I've found nothing that says Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are intended to allow adults to evaluate a Scout's spirit. I'll certainly agree that many adults use them that way, but that's not how they are intended to be used.

[Kudu 186]

ajmako writes: "Actually, it's Baden-Powell's idea. Yes, you're right, the original idea was that a boy would take on the obligation of the Oath, Law, Motto, etc. himself. And everything I've read by B-P makes it pretty clear he expected that Scout to understand there was no picking and choosing. A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. You can't pick and choose which points of the Scout Law you will be."

 

Well, of course the BSA acts in bad faith (so to speak). It spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep a six-year-old out of Scouting if his dad won't sign a "Scout is Reverent" statement, but it does not commit the same resources to defend "A Scout is Clean" against six-year-olds with messy rooms.

 

ajmako writes: "Kudu, I'm afraid it is some kind of misunderstanding. The actual text of the Boy Scout Handbook concerning how Scout Spirit is to be determined has already been quoted."

 

You mean the Scout determines it? Do you think that the same committee who wrote those pretty words also wrote the advancement requirements? Clearly the intention of Scout Spirit requirements is to provide opportunities for adults to make moral judgements about the Scouts.

 

ajmako writes: "I've searched everything I could think of or have access to as far as official BSA literature and I've found nothing that says Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are intended to allow adults to evaluate a Scout's spirit.

 

It is true that the BSA may not tell you exactly how to evaluate a Scout's spirit, but the BSA does not tell you how to evaluate a Scout's ability to tie a square knot either.

 

Kudu