Methods of Scouting NOT Interdependent???

[John-in-KC 311]

Ed Mori posted this in the COmplete Uniform Thread:

 

think you missed the point, Bob.

 

The uniform is NOT required to be a BSA member, but it is required if you want to attend Jamboree. Now, what about the unit in which no one owns a uniform. They can't attend Jamboree unless they buy one? How is that right? Sure the uniform is one of the Methods of Scouting. But the Methods of Scouting are not requirements and they are not interdependent on each other.

 

That said, I agree with acco. It is hypocritical.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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Whoa, Nelly, Ed!!!!

 

"But the Methods of Scouting are not requirements and they are not interdependent on each other."

 

Ideals

 

 

Patrols

 

 

Outdoors

 

 

Advancement

 

 

Adult Association

 

 

Personal Growth

 

 

Leadership Development

 

 

Uniform

 

Adult Association supports Advancement and Leadership Development. Leadership Development comes from Outdoors, Patrols and Personal Growth...

 

I'm throwing the baloney sandwich flag on this one!

 

They are interdependent, and fully so.

 

And yes, the Uniform Method contributes, IMO to ideals and personal growth.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Thank you John, I was beginning to tink I was the only one to quesiton the comments that the methods of scouting are not requirements. If the BSA has three aims and says it uses the 8 methods to reach that goal, how is it they are not requirements? I guess the question is if your troop sees the 8 methods as not required, how do you achieve the 3 aims? What methods do you use?

[evmori 11]

How can the uniform method be a requirement if a uniform isn't required to be a member of the BSA? And how is the uniform method dependent on the advancement method? Or visa versa?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Ed, one thng at a time, do you think the 8 methods of scouting are required or not? Don't concentrate on the flameball du'jour

[evmori 11]

OGE,

They are methods. I see nothing that states they are required. A Troop isn't required to have a NSP, although it is part of the Patrol Method. No one is required to own a uniform, but there is a Uniform Method.

 

I hope this answers your question.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SWScouter 34]

OGE: do you think the 8 methods of scouting are required or not?

 

evmori: They are methods. I see nothing that states they are required.

 

I think what OGE means here is that for the program to work as designed, it is required that all eight methods be employed by the troop. Personally, I don't consider this the same as say, requiring the uniform. Or, in other words, using the uniform method is not the same as requiring the uniform.

 

SWScouter

[John-in-KC 311]

Ed,

 

The question is and continues to be:

 

Are the methods of Boy Scouting Interdependent?

 

Remember what we, as Scouters are charged to do: Instill in young men the three AIMS of Scouting:

 

Character Development -- Citizenship Training -- Personal Fitness

 

To achieve those three aims, we have eight methods:

Ideals -- Patrols -- Outdoors -- Advancement -- Adult Association -- Personal Growth -- Leadership Development --Uniform

 

I submit if you go all the way back to the writings of Baden-Powell, let alone ET Seton, you will find that WHAT SCOUTING DOES AND HOW WE ADULTS MAKE IT HAPPEN is both synergistic and interdependent.

 

Here are some quotes from Baden-Powell:

 

Character Development --

"An individual step in character training is to put responsibility on the individual."

"We never fail when we try to do our duty, we always fail when we neglect to do it."

 

Citizenship Training --

"Correcting bad habits cannot be done by forbidding or punishment."

"The whole intention of the Boy Scouts' Training is for peaceful citizenship."

 

Personal Fitness --

"A scout does not smoke."

"Hiking, too, where you go farther afield, exploring new places every day, is a glorious adventure when once you know how to do it properly. This you learn through being a Scout."

 

Ideals --

A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other Scout; no matter what colour, class or creed the other may belong"

 

Patrols --

"The more responsibility the Scoutmaster gives his patrol leaders, the more they will respond."

"The object of the patrol method is not so much having the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy."

"The troop of boys was divided up into 'Patrols' of five, the senior boy in each being the Patrol Leader. This organisation was the secret of our success. Each Patrol Leader was given full responsibility for the behaviour of his patrol at all times ... "

"You join a patrol, or ... raise a patrol yourself by getting five other boys to join..."

 

Outdoors --

"Scoutmasters need the capacity to enjoy the out-of-doors."

"Now I am down here preparing my Boys Camp. It is the perfect place for it - a splendid island, well-wooded and wild, giving plenty of scope for Scouting. I think we shall have a very good time if the weather is only kind, which it doesn't promise to be at the moment."

"Who of you would want to spend a fortnight under canvas with a troop of other boys, and under the care of General Baden-Powell? Is there a boy in all the land whose heart does not jump with joy at the prospect?"

 

Advancement --

"The spirit is there in every boy; it has to be discovered and brought to light."

 

 

Adult Association --

"Success in training the boy depends largely on the Scoutmaster's own personal example."

 

Personal Growth --

"The most important thing that a great many boys need to learn is to look at the bright side of things and to take everything by the smooth handle. I myself found that a great lesson . . ."

"... 6. Any boy who misbehaves himself, or is found otherwise undesirable in camp may be sent home at any time."

 

Leadership Development --

"But I quite agree with you one wants to teach these boys the quality of not 'grousing' - and I think that may come as a result of such training as that of 'Scouts' - for they are not born grousing: there is hope if one catches them young enough . . . The Loafers are the grousers."

 

Uniform --

"Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader."

"The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country."

 

SWScouter said it for me: "...for the program to work as designed, it is required that all eight methods be employed by the troop."

 

YIS

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

I think I have the answer!

Let's say we have the NO advancement Troop. So, they have Troop meetings where they only play basketball and never have an opening or a closing. They go on outings but they only play Capture the Flag. They go to Summer Camp and free-swim and eat ice cream. They don't attend District or Council events because competition is not interesting to them and patches are not important. They never have a Court of Honor or an Eagle Scout. Then they find that they really don't need Leadership because nothing is structured, planned or evaluated. Patrols are out because they need only two teams to play most games. They do have two adults because that is required but since nobody advances, SM conferences are not needed, nor PLC's. Their committee is on paper, never meets and has nothing to support or to have BOR for because advancement is out. It is at that point that the uniform is not needed because they have nothing to sew on it SO it should not be required. It would be hypocrisy to do otherwise.

 

Remember, Scouting is a Game:)

 

FB

 

[Eamonn 61]

While there are other youth organizations that do teach:Character Development -- Citizenship Training -- Personal Fitness. I don't know of any that use the methods of Scouting.

It might be worth remembering that while the methods for each program area are similar, each section has it's own methods.

I am a big fan of the methods of Scouting.

I do think that those of us who use them never ever manage to get it right!!

David Niven in his book The Moons A Balloon talks about just having everything in order when the seeds from the weeds of the garden next door take root in your garden.

I have never looked at Scouting as being very difficult. I do admit that over the years and while serving in different roles, I have looked at things differently and at times seen the error of my ways.

The ideals of Scouting which can be found in the Oath, Law, Slogan and Motto do echo my own personal beliefs and are hand in hand with my values. While some might say that I live in some sort of Utopian fools paradise, I can imagine how great things would be if more people took the ideals of Scouting to heart and did their best to live by them.

I kinda know that I am not going to change the world or even the hearts of all the people that live in my area, I'm OK with that, I do however want to do my best to see if I can make a difference in as many young life's as I can. I have a lot of faith in the Scouting programs and a lot of faith in the people who deliver the programs.

The better Leaders are the ones who have recognized that boys don't join for character they join for the fun and exciting activities. These better leaders know that the young people will learn Scouting's values along the way. Some like me will be slow learners and keep learning all the time. I joined over 40 years ago and still learn new things or rethink old ways.

I found out very early on when I started serving as an adult and as a Scoutmaster that a quality program, that was well planned made my life easier and made the program more attractive to the boys. Boys who were Scouts and boys who were thinking of joining.

When we sat down to make plans I used the methods of Scouting as my guide.

Did our Annual Plan allow ample opportunities to do the outdoor activities? Did the plan allow activities that could be used for Advancement? Was there a challenge there, so that our Scouts were being challenged and maybe at times unknowingly they would experience personal growth? There were of course times when they were recognized for this growth either with a patch or badge or having something signed off in their book.

For a very long time I seen myself as being in the spotlight, I wanted to be the one that "My Scouts" turned too. I wanted them to like me the most. It took a very long time for me to see that there are different course for different horses and some Scouts were happier going to a ASM. I also found that allowing them to be exposed to other adults who shared the ideals of Scouting and could be trusted was a lesson for the Scout. I lost count of how many times a Lad came up to me and explained that when he first met so and so, he didn't like him, but as he got to know him and worked with him things changed.

I'm very "Old school", I expect young people to respect people older than them, by being well mannered. There is a deeper respect that we the adults have to earn.

A real working Patrol is a thing of real beauty. Some Patrols are great from day one, they for some reason see that they are the Team, They are where it is at and where it is happening, while other Patrols have peaks and valleys, they can go through periods when everything is smooth sailing and then there are the bad days.

Allowing Scouts to take on more and more responsibilities, training Patrol leaders, having the Troop QM work with the Patrol QM. Placing real responsibility on a Lad and making him accountable for getting the job done, is to my mind what makes Scouting different to other youth organizations. I haven't been around other youth organizations so maybe I'm being unfair to them?

Then we have the uniform, I have to admit that I have never, ever had a problem with uniforming. The Troop was an inner-city troop, I met with the parents of every new Scout gave them the information of where to get it, how much it would cost and what went on it. I invited them to the investiture of their Son (When he had a full uniform he was invested into the troop - He was already a member but without a uniform he had no place to wear his uniform.) Scouts were expected to wear their uniform to Troop meetings and the PLC would decide the dress code for other activities and outings, this was communicated to the Scouts via their PL and to the parents via a monthly news letter.

I have to admit that we never said anything about a uniform not being required for membership. I think everyone thought it was required!! We had Scouts who changed into uniform in the Scout Hall because they were scared of being beaten up if they were caught wearing it to or from the meeting, we had Scouts who had uniforms in the wash or were coming from another non-scouting activity. For my part I was just glad they made the meeting.

As for the methods being inter-dependent? I believe that we have a recipe that works, if we put all the ingredients in, when or if we take one ingredient out something is missing. We as leaders do need to be mindful of the methods and look for a balance that is right for the troop that we have right now, knowing that things could change in the coming months. We would hope that we would be able to see our youth leaders develop as their term of office moves along or we might see that we have new youth leaders and we the adults would have to be ready to take on the task of training the new guys.

The batch of Lads that just crossed over might be lazy little toads or they might be gung-ho advancing at light speed. These guys might have parents that were waiting for the store to open in order to buy a full Scout uniform or they might be waiting for a fund raiser to get the cash needed.

The Troop is there to meet the needs of the Scouts that it serves, these needs are not the same for every boy. We can if we remain flexible meet these needs. The methods are a great guide that will help us as we plan. There will be times when everything comes together and all the methods work together in harmony, there will be times when the methods will become a goal.

I feel very strongly that this game of Scouting, along with the purpose isn't that hard, we can make it seem like hard work or we can focus on having a plan that will deliver a Troop Program that is fun and contains activities that along the way employ the methods of Scouting and help us meet the mission and vision of the BSA. When we allow this to happen we might need to be looking for a bigger meeting place.

Eamonn.

 

[schleining 11]

I knew the Complete uniform topic would eventually spin off.

 

John-

I could not have said it better, so I won't..

 

Fuzzy Bear- That camp is run my the YMCA.. good thought though, it would give people that do not want to participate fully in the BSA Program a place to go.

 

Eamonn- You Da man! I love reading your straight forward posts. Makes me a better Scout leader.. thanks

 

Jerry

SM