Baden Powell visits 2005

[Miki101 14]

Hi OGE,

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a scrapbook with that picture in it.

 

dave scott

[Trevorum 24]

A picture of his marker is at:

 

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GRid=1271&PIgrid=1271&PIcrid=639693&pt=Robert+Baden-Powell&ShowCemPhotos=Y&

 

... showing the trail sign for "gone home".

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

On his marker B-P has placed the trail symbol for I have gone home, yet some people argue that B-P really didnt place a lot of emhasis on the religious aspect of scouting and that it has been a recent thing

[Kahuna 172]

From what reading I have done on Baden-Powell and from conversations with Bill Hillcourt, I do not believe he was a devout (born again type) Christian. He was, I believe, what many British are today, a nominal church goer. He did feel, though, that religious belief gave some foundation to anyone, particularly when it came to obligations and duty. Britain, of course, does not have separate church and state as we do. The head of state is also head of the Church of England. In that era, it was assumed that everybody belonged to a church, probably a Christian one.

[Miki101 14]

Well said Kahuna,

 

That is probably the most level-headed, non-inflammatory statement of opinion that is, I bet, really near the mark of fact. My examination of his writings clearly shows a belief in traditional church-going, mixed with patriotism, temperance and the ability to pray for guidance.

 

Good work.

[Kudu 186]

Miki writes:

 

> Without BP, the Scouting that would have occurred would have been

> in the non-militaristic, highly Americanized vision of Dan Beard.

 

For those who are interested, the entire Dan Beard handbook for his pre-Scouting boys' organizations, "The Boy Pioneers: Sons of Daniel Boone," can be found at The Inquiry Net:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/beard/pioneers

 

If you check out their constitution, you can see that the program is truly "boy-lead," which may have presented problems for year-to-year continuity in local chapters (called "forts") :-)

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/constitution_beard.htm

 

I have never been able to locate any written equivalent to adult "aims and methods" in Beard. Does anyone have anything? For a brief history of aims & methods outlines in B-P, Seton, and the BSA, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods

 

> The other option (which would have fared better because of the backing

> of the YMCA) would have been the Woodcraft Indians, which would have

> morphed into a massive Indian Guides program.

 

Tim Jeal writes that despite Seton's "head start," his Birch Bark scheme never caught on in the United States to the degree that Seton envisioned. Jeal felt that the recently vanquished Native Americans simply never had the role model appeal for American boys that Baden-Powell's hunters, explorers, and even African natives did.

 

But another possibility is that Seton's program was progressive, and I suspect that liberal institutions have never supported on-going outdoor programs for their children. I don't have any historical perspective on this, I'm just speculating on what I see in current liberal institutions like the UUA.

 

Had the YMCA backed the Woodcraft Indians, they most likely would have morphed it into a socially conservative institution. This might have been more successful, although it might not have been recognizable as the Woodcraft Indians (remember that the YMCA-influenced BSA did not use the Patrol System until William Hillcourt's arrival).

 

For those who are interested, the entire 1927 edition of Ernest Seton's "Birch Bark Roll of Woodcraft" is online at:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch

 

> However, the first thing that I believe he would do would be to re-write

> SCOUTING FOR BOYS (on his laptop using Word) to reflect the modern

> times.

 

We all agree that we can only speculate as to how B-P would approach Scouting if he were alive today. The "Traditional Scouting" Movement (the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association [bPSA] being the most well-known) works from the opposite direction. Their program is a return to Baden-Powell's "Scouting for Boys," which preserves his program as much as possible, making changes for health, environmental, first-aid, and safety reasons only. The American branch (BPSA-USA) should launch sometime this summer.

 

The generic, decentralized, Traditional Scouting program, called "Independent Scouting," can be found at:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/handbook

 

As you can see, Baden-Powell's Traditional model differs from the modern BSA model in a number of ways, including "observational" advancement requirements such as Kim's Game, tracking, and following trail signs. Observation was a big deal with both B-P and Seton (and the early BSA) but now, not so much.

 

Another important Traditional element is the "expedition." These were unsupervised hiking/backpacking experiences required for every advancement Award from Second Class on. The "First Class Journey" reads:

 

"Go on foot with three other Second Class Scouts, on a 24 hour journey of at least 15 miles. In the course of the journey you must cook your own meals, one of which must contain meat or other raw ingredients. Find your own campsite and camp for the night. Carry out the instructions of the examiner as to things to be observed en-route. You must independently each make a detailed log of the journey (This to be the last test)."

 

This is still practiced in the BPSA associations of other countries, but will have to be adapted in the United States to conform to American sensibilities :-/

 

> I do not think that he would go around issuing orders to change the uniform.

 

Baden-Powell insisted on short pants (which, by some accounts, were not even popular with boys in his own time) and long-sleeve shirts, which were rolled up. For instructions on how to make these shirts, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/traditional/shirt01.htm

 

B-P's views on the Uniform are still adhered to in some strict Traditional associations, but have been changed in others to suit local climates, such as Canada. The American BPSA will offer the practical BDU ("cargo") pants. In my opinion, nylon "zip-off" cargo pants make the best Scouting uniform, but these are not available from suppliers in a consistent year-to-year style. On the other hand, BDU pants are an industry standard, and are easily adapted to meet the needs of small Scouting associations. For a detailed photographic comparison table of various styles of "activity pants," see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm

 

> He would instead try to re-build Scoutings infrastructure from the philosophical

> viewpoint and reiterate that Scouting is non-denominational but there is a basic

> belief in some Supreme Being.

 

Given the changes in our culture, I suspect that the ideal 2005 Baden-Powell (free from the political realities of defending earthly Scouting institutions) might advance some Christian idea of unconditional love toward Scouts who do not share his belief in a Supreme Being. B-P clearly expressed his spiritual beliefs in terms of "God," but this was an inclusive God characterized by some as the non-supernatural, pantheistic God of his father, as found in the "elder" Rev. Baden Powell's "The Order of Nature," which B-P described as "the most remarkable book he had ever read:"

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature

 

At about the same time as B-P changed his last name from Powell to Baden-Powell to honor his father, the Rev. Baden Powell, his heretical father was being publicly denounced by Anglican conservatives, like Canon Pusey, who "crowed over his death as 'his removal to a higher tribunal' and publicly suggested that he had died without the consolation of religious faith, [at 13 years old] Stephe [b-P] was old enough to understand the attack. He grew up with a distrust of clergymen and theology which he would never lose [Jeal, page 11].

 

According to the oral tradition of the Traditional Scouting Movement, as Scouting spread to non-theistic cultures such as Buddhist Burma (mentioned in "Scouting for Boys" as a distinguished example of "practical Christianity"), he wrote an "Outlander Promise" for such foreign ("outlander") cultures:

 

On my honor I promise to do my best:

To render service to my country;

To help other people at all times;

To obey the Scout Law.

 

I can't find any written sources for the origin of the "Outlander Promise," but it was probably also used in British Scouting associations such as the "Outlander Scouts," which eventually merged with the Christian "British Boy Scouts," for six years. Conservative British Traditional Scouting leaders write that Baden-Powell referred to English Scouts "who could not make the full Scout Promise," as "Outlanders" ("The Great World Scout Schism and The History of the British Boy Scouts," Reverend Michael John Foster, page 77), which implies that he treated them with the patience suggested in "Scoutmastership," where he describes in detail the game of Scouting to be played with "lads of practically no religion of any kind":

 

(a) Personal example of the Scoutmaster.

(b) Nature study.

© Good turns.

(d) Missioner service.

(e) Retention of the older boy.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm#no_religion

 

For those who are interested, a few extended passages from Tim Jeal's biography "Baden-Powell" concerning B-P's spiritual development can be found at:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

> He may even re-issue his 1910 circular on How to Pray.

 

Do you have that in a digital form?

 

 

[Miki101 14]

That "How to Pray" circular is actually a letter dated Feb 17, 1910 to "Dear Sir."

 

I will quote only a couple of sentences using the US "Fair Use" statues:

 

"I attach very little importance to prayers in a set form which a boy has to learn by heart. I have met so many men, even well brought up men, who said they did not know how to pray - had forgotten "their prayers!"

 

He continued by providing 3 guidelines for praying and providing 3 samples of very simple, basic prayers.

 

BP then closes with a statement that: prayers, when combined with a good day, equals a relationship with God that will last a lifetime.

 

dave scott

[Miki101 14]

 

Kudu writes:

 

> remember that the YMCA-influenced BSA did not use the Patrol System until William Hillcourt's arrival).

 

Are you sure, Kudu...the first SM Handbook (1913 - 1914), p. 18, states:

 

"Troops and Patrols.

The Boy Scouts, themselves, are organized into troops and their subdivisions, the patrols. A patrol consists of eight boys, one of whom becomes the patrol leader."

 

Hillcourt took the idea and improved it by writing the PL Handbook in 1929.

 

dave scott

[Kudu 186]

> Are you sure, Kudu...the first SM Handbook (1913 - 1914), p. 18, states:

> "Troops and Patrols. The Boy Scouts, themselves, are organized into

> troops and their subdivisions, the patrols. A patrol consists of eight boys,

> one of whom becomes the patrol leader."

 

Yes, Troops were "divided into" Patrols, but I don't think you will find any public mention of B-P's Patrol System until 1923. An appendix titled the "Patrol Method" was bound into the later printings of the second SM Handbook (which I guess was about three years before Hillcourt's arrival, do you have any information as to how this came about?) This new-fangled "Patrol Method" was, at long last, touted by James West as "a radical change in the management of troops...."

 

The BSA theory used before the Patrol System was something called the "Six Principles of Boy-Work," which sounds like YMCA theory to me, but I have never found a source. Do you know where it comes from?

 

At any rate, the "Six Principles of Boy Work" was the exact opposite of the Patrol System.

 

The "Scout Master" was instructed to divide the Troop into Patrols using BSA "Grouping Standards (p. 82)" These Standards were based on "the experience of boy workers in various parts of the country," rather than on Baden-Powell's program.

 

My personal favorite was the "Height and Weight Standard" (which the BSA expected to "become the real basis of all groupings in the future"): "all the boys of ninety pounds and under might be put together, the same being true for those under one hundred and ten, one hundred and twenty-five, and one hundred and forty pounds.

 

"If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight."

 

Social class was yet another BSA Grouping Standard by which adults could divide the Scouts. This was the "School Boy or Wage-Earning Boy Standard. If the boy happens to be in the grammar school, he may be grouped with boys of his own educational advancement; so with the boys who are in the secondary or high schools, and the same may be said of working boys who are forced to earn their own livelihood."

 

The BSA suggested that adults might be "most satisfied" by dividing the Scouts into Patrols by their interests, "Some boys will be mutually interested in collecting stamps, riding a bicycle, forming a mounted patrol, working with wireless, in music and orchestra work, etc., and boys grouped according to such kindred interests as they manifest has proven most satisfactory in general boys' work."

 

While this may sound relatively enlightened, nowhere does the 1st "Handbook for Scout Masters" suggest that the Scouts form THEMSELVES into Patrols, which, of course, was the whole point of Baden-Powell's Patrol System, as later advanced by Hillcourt in his vision of Patrols as natural groupings of "boy gangs."

 

The "Six Principles of Boy-Work," however, was a collection of rules by which the "Scout Master" established himself "to be master of the situation at all times and to be the recognized leader [1st Principle]"

 

The 2nd Principle stated that "he should tell the boys what the game is and how it is to be played, getting their approval, and agreement to get in on the deal."

 

One of the BSA methods of investing the "Scout Master" with complete control over the Troop, was to keep the Patrol Leaders completely powerless. In those rare circumstances when the Scout Master delegated decision-making to the Scouts, he was instructed to delegate to the WHOLE GROUP rather than to the Patrol Leader:

 

"The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master

 

"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan [p. 85]."

 

BSA Patrol "Grouping Standards" and the "Six Principles of Boy-Work" from the above pages of the 1st "Handbook for Scout Masters" can be found at:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/principles.htm

 

Rick Seymour

The Inquiry Net

www.inquiry.net

 

[scoutingagain 20]

Miki,

 

I stand corrected. I was in Westminster Abbey about 6 years ago when I noticed a group of British Scouts taking photos of a marker. I was curious since photos were not supposed to be allowed. I wandered over to see what they were taking a picture of and it was a marker for Baden Powell. Apparently the Scouts had gotten special permission to take pictures of the marker. I just assumed it was the real deal. Still, nice to know he was so honored.

 

SA

[Miki101 14]

As students of Scouting history we are bound to split hairs...therefore, I will.

 

Were talking apples and oranges.BPs Patrol System was based upon boys creating their own patrols without the direction of an adult. That was because he intended his Scouting program to be an additional element to other programs like the Boys Brigade. As you know, he did not intend upon creating a self-running organization but thats ultimately what happened.

 

To state that the BSA did not have a BP Patrol System would be correct in spirit, I guess, because the BSAs program was driven by the YMCA and they provided the ready-made organizational institutions in which potential boys could just sign-up and immediately start to scout. They did not have to create a patrol with 5 of their buddies like BP suggested in SCOUTING FOR BOYS, which was written for the independent boy that wanted to start scouting and was not already in a Boys Brigade or like minded program. So, yes, BP encouraged boys to form their own patrols, but he did specify that the boys should be of the same age.

 

The Proof edition of the SM Handbook notes that there are to be elections within a patrol to elect a patrol leader and that there was to be a governing body made up of the SM and the PLs, ie. the Patrol Leaders Council. Those parts have always been in the US program. However, the fact that patrols were assigned on the basis of the 6 Principles, whether they be the YMCAs or anothers, just shows an interesting developmental difference between the origination of the 2 programs in 2 completely different countries.

 

BPs program was simply a blueprint for US scouting. Thats all. Much like Setons program was a blueprint for English Scouting. The Silver Bay trial camp in August 1910 was a loose combination of the 2 (having elements being used from both plans under the direction of William Murray with Seton and Robinsons help) and BPs British blueprint ended up working the best. Hence the overwhelming decision to Americanize the 1910 Scouting Handbook in 1911 and further rid many British elements from an American Scouting program.

 

BP's Patrol Method developed and Hillcourt saw it happen. He saw the failings in the BSA program at that time and formalized the direction in which the BSA was moving in the 1929 PL's Handbook.

 

dave scott

 

[Kudu 186]

> As students of Scouting history we are bound to split hairs...therefore,

> I will.

 

I don't do much original historical research, although I do see some areas where such an examination of rare old primary materials is needed (B-P's writings on "The Religion of the Woods" and "Practical Christianity," for instance). My own interest lies in establishing traditional Scouting programs, either within the BSA (essentially a return to Hillcourt's methods) or as alternative Traditional Scouting programs based directly on Baden-Powell's own model.

 

> They did not have to create a patrol with 5 of their buddies like BP

> suggested in SCOUTING FOR BOYS, which was written for the

> independent boy that wanted to start scouting and was not already in

> a Boys Brigade or like-minded program.

 

Well, you still have to recruit the Scouts and form them into Patrols. I don't see the Patrol Grouping Standards as a necessary, or even helpful function within ready-made organization institutions. When I recruit in the public schools, I find that groups of buddies tend to form Patrols naturally. If not, I use Hillcourt's method of asking them to play a game without telling them how to divide themselves, then stopping the game and instructing them to switch off if they want to because their "team" will be their permanent "Patrol".

 

The Six Principles were simply a gross misreading (or typical American disregard) of the UK materials. The same thing happened with the formation of the American branch of the British Boy Scouts, called the American Boy Scout (aka The United States Boy Scout). Hopefully in 2005 the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association (BPSA-USA) will finally succeed in introducing Baden-Powell's Scouting program to Americans.

 

Charismatic boys can still create Patrols by recruiting their buddies. I award a BSA Recruiting Strip when a Scout registers one of his friends, and the round Recruiter patch for three new Scouts. This inevitably prompts the question, "What do we get for bringing in four Scouts?" Which I answer by holding up a Patrol Leader's Patch. Hint: a bribe of three Reeses Cups to the recruiter of each registered new Scout helps too :-)

 

> So, yes, BP encouraged boys to form their own patrols, but he did

> specify that the boys should be of the same age.

 

Older boys make better Patrol Leaders, but for better or worse, it is more likely that natural peer-selected Patrols will be of the same age.

 

> The Proof edition of the SM Handbook notes that there are to be

> elections within a patrol to elect a patrol leader and that there was

> to be a governing body made up of the SM and the PLs, ie. the

> Patrol Leaders Council. Those parts have always been in the US

> program.

 

It appears that the Patrol Leaders functioned as the Scout Master's teaching assistants. This is admirable as far as it goes, but it is not the Patrol Method. The chapter on training Patrol Leaders states, "As soon as a Leader has been selected he should be recognized as special agent of instruction under the Scout Master, helping to teach to the other patrol members what the Scout Master desires to impart." And "When on hikes, the case is somewhat different. Then Patrol Leaders should seldom be given complete charge."

 

I have posted this PL Training chapter for those who are interested,

 

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/training/1st_smhb.htm

 

The PLC's function seems to have been for providing feedback. It did not have a governing function in the sense of the English Court of Honor deciding where they want to go camping, or what they want to do at weekly meetings. The importance of "Scouting for Boys" was not in forming independent Patrols without the benefit of a sponsoring organization, but in creating a desire within boys to organize their own adventures.

 

While it may be reassuring to see familiar elements like Patrol Elections and a PLC in the 1st SM Handbook, their actual functions were governed by the Six Principles, which was the BSA's "Eight Methods" of the time.

 

My reading of the 1st and 2nd Principles, is that the Scout Master is the creative muse who thinks of fun things to do, and then dictates that the boys buy into his adventure:

 

"First, there must be a clear plan well thought out, progressive in its stages with an aim for each stage. In other words no man need try to work with a group of boys unless he knows what he wants to do, not only in outline but in detail. He must have these details in mind and so well worked out in his thought, knowing exactly what comes next and just what is to be added to that which he has already accomplished, as to be master of the situation at all times and to be the recognized leader." http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/principles.htm

 

The 2nd Principle is that the Scout Master presents his plan to the boys, either in individual interviews or as a group, and makes it clear to them they must accept the Scout Master's plan if they want join his Troop, "getting their approval, and agreement to get in on the deal."

 

My reading of the 3rd Principle, "Application of Self-Government" is that the Scout Master lets them figure out how to implement the Scout Master's creative ideas: "Lead by suggestion, so that unconsciously the boys follow your advice and dictation, giving them the benefit of their decisions and impulses. Pure self-government in which the boys are entirely the dictators of their policies and activities can not be thought of because such a course is so generally fatal to successful development."

 

This idea is also presented in the chapter on Patrol Leader Training, "Best leadership is that which governs indirectly or by suggestion so that the boys believe there has been a real self-governing decision."

 

> The Silver Bay trial camp in August 1910 was a loose combination of the 2

 

I think I remember reading in one of the biographies of Ernest Seton ("Black Wolf," maybe) that while all the BSA's experienced youth leaders were off in Silver Bay, some sort of Coup took place back in NY which removed Seton, Beard, and other experienced youth workers from their decision-making positions and replaced them with bankers and lawyers like James West. I believe that the author stated that the BSA actually incorporated twice, with this being the second incorporation. Is that true?

 

James West then went on to secure a monopoly on Scouting for the BSA, because that is what corporate lawyers did at that time :-)

 

> BPs program was simply a blueprint for US scouting. Thats all. Much

> like Setons program was a blueprint for English Scouting.

 

By "blueprint," I assume you mean "inspiration" or "jumping off point," which was my point too: a YMCA brand of Woodcraft Indians would have presented problems for Seton, probably in ways similar to his experience with the BSA. However, it is possible that a conservative version may have been more successful, if we assume that Tim Jeal is incorrect in suggesting that Native American role models simply did not appeal to very many children.

 

> Hence the overwhelming decision to Americanize the 1910 Scouting

> Handbook in 1911 and further rid many British elements from an American

> Scouting program.

 

Americans tend to view the BSA's program as the inevitable result of "Americanization" (and "modernization" too, the "One Minute Manager" content of Wood Badge for example). I think this is because we cannot conceive of competition, freedom, and alternatives in American Scouting. These assumptions shape our concepts of what Baden-Powell would do in 2005, and the very idea that Baden-Powell's program needs much tampering to be as fun for 21st Century American children as it was for British boys almost a hundred years ago.

 

The lure of Scouting, I think, is not in communicating with orbiting satellites to find your way. When I recruit in the public schools, I appeal to the sense of adventure boys find in a primitive encounter with the very forces of nature that shaped our evolution as a species. Despite our advances in technology, a 12 year-old Scout sleeping in a nylon tent in the wilderness this weekend, will have much the same experience as his great-grandfather did sleeping in a canvas tent a hundred years ago. When he gets up in the morning, the firewood will need the same ratio of heat and oxygen to ignite as it did a hundred years ago. He will cook his pancakes in much the same way, and he will enjoy them just as much :-)

 

 

 

[Miki101 14]

Good stuff Rick,

 

I really would like to disagree with you (I like a good discussion) but I think that you have made the correct analysis.

 

 

> I think I remember reading in one of the biographies of Ernest Seton ("Black Wolf," maybe) that

> while all the BSA's experienced youth leaders were off in Silver Bay, some sort of Coup took

> place back in NY which removed Seton, Beard, and other experienced youth workers from their

> decision-making positions and replaced them with bankers and lawyers like James West. I

> believe that the author stated that the BSA actually incorporated twice, with this being the

> second incorporation. Is that true?

 

 

The name Boy Scouts of America was incorporated twice. The first was done by W.D. Boyce in February 1910 in tandem with two other gentlemen...their names escape me right now. The second was done in early November 1910, at which time, the 3 original incorporators turned the incorporation papers over to Colin Livingstone and about 15 others, including Seton and Beard. West was not in the picture at the time.

 

The Silver Bay Camp in August 1910 was used by the BSA executives to decide which scheme to go with, Setons or BPs. There were reps present from both schemes and the decision was made in September to go with the BP scheme. Seton was clearly devastated. He had been pushing for his scheme to be incorporated nationally by the YMCA/BSA from the start, meaning the YMCA camping groups from 1903 - 1909 and even more obviously with the publishing of THE AMERICAN BOY SCOUT: THE OFFICIAL MANUAL OF WOODCRAFT FOR THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA manual in April/May of 1910, which was the 8th Edition of the Birch Bark Roll, but really the 7th BBR (1908) with a different title.

 

West appears near the end of November and through December as someone to be interviewed for the post of Executive Secretary. Basically, this post would be the replacement for Edgar M. Robinson. Robinson was the true first Chief Scout Executive. West was the second.

 

Wests recommendation came from Ernest P. Bicknell of the Red Cross who wrote Livingstone of 2 great executives to consider for the job. The winner was James E. West. Negotiations took place throughout December and West took the job for 6 months starting on January 2, 1911, complete with a salary funded by the Russell Sage Foundation.

 

 

No Coup as you describe from Keller, but a choice to go with a proven winner in the Hero of Mafeking vs. the Indian scheme that had not made much of an imprint nationally, much less internationally when compared to BPs scheme. What you did see was an attempt to marginalize and consolidate all of the other programs that were blotting the scouting landscape. The BSA had to involve Seton and Beard, which they did, but it was mainly to get them on board in name and give the BSA legitimacy.

 

What Keller fails to point out is that Beard wrote a letter to his editor at the PICTORIAL REVIEW magazine, Arthur Vance - the magazine that was publishing his Boy Pioneer column - that he could utilize the new BSA to his and Vances advantage in popularizing his own Boy Pioneers movement.

 

Its facts like these that make this BSA history stuff is so darn interesting and why Im making an in depth study on it.

 

dave scott

 

[Kahuna 172]

I can't believe how much I'm learning about the origins of the BSA. I've read Hillcourt's and Jeal's books, the 1914 Handbook for Scoutmasters (which has a lot of organization info, such as how to form a Council and suggested Constitution for the same), and lots of others. Much of what you are discussing here was not, for more or less obvious reasons, included in the official BSA material and probably beyond the scope of Hillcourt and Jeal.

 

Fascinating stuff, guys! I am really impressed with the knowledge and amount of research I'm finding here.

 

Win