Outrageous registration fees

[ScoutMomAng 10]

I'm a Webelos leader in Florida. My sister is the step mom of a second grade boy (second year in second grade) and is a Bear Scout this year, in Michigan. Last year he was a Wolf Scout. This year his pack has "decided to do something different". The registration fee this year for returning Bear scouts is $135.oo!!! I think this is outrageous because first of all it does not cover anything scout wise. It pays den dues, blue and gold dinner, some hockey game, some hayride (which he already missed), and his pinewood derby car kit, boys life magazine, and maybe a few other things but that seemed to be the most of it. The biggest kicker is that if the fees are not paid by January then the boy can not participate in the Pinewood Derby. I think this is an unfair call. First of all why are they including fees for things the boy may or may not attend (hay ride, hockey game etc.)? Suppose something happens and the boy can not attend these events??? Doesn't $135.00 seem like a lot of money when registration is in the ballpark of $10.00 per year, boys life is only 10.80 per year, and den dues should be no more than $1.25 per week???? And can they really tell a boy that he can NOT participate in the Pinewood Derby? I thought scouting was supposed to be for every boy everywhere. Can something be done about the outrageous fees? Why aren't they using the money from the fundraisers for some of the stuff they have, like the blue and gold dinner, and the pinewood derby? Who should my sister call? They can't afford that amount for registration and sometimes the boy does not deserve to go to special outings like hockey games, hay rides, etc. I believe scouts should never be taken away as a punishment but the extra activities should be. If the boy deliberately does not do his homework and pulls failing grades just because he "didn't want to do it" then he should not be privvy to extra activities like a hay ride, so why should she pay for it up front when she doesn't know how he will behave???

[SR540Beaver 116]

I don't know that there is anything to stop them from doing this. What it sounds like to me is that they have parents who have not supported fundraisers in the past and they have decided to charge an upfront fee. I remember when my son was playing little league ball and we had people who either just flat didn't lift a finger to help raise funds or they wanted to write a check and not mess with it. Some boys would get out and work their tail off and other boys did nothing. Guess what? The boys who did nothing benefitted from the ones who worked. You can imagine how that made the worker boys and their families feel. Let me give you another example. The cost for going to the National Jamboree from where our council is located is $1900.00. Knowing that there are families that would struggle spending that much money, I volunteered to run a fundraiser for it. We had 93 boys signed up at the time. I sent them all information with one month to do the fundraiser. It was in August before school started, so it wouldn't compete with their school work. We had 31 boys participate. One third. We had one kid who raised almost $900 as his profit. Some raised $100. Many raised $15. 62 boys didn't even bother. You know what I was asked by many of these people after the fundraiser was over? Are we going to do another fundraiser? NO! As I said, I suspect that they have been down the road of the majority of parents not supporting the fundraisers and they are tired of nickel and diming the parents everytime an activity comes up. It sounds like they just decided to have them write a check instead and make life "easier" for everyone. I'm with you, I don't like it and I'd never support it in my unit. Has she considered another Pack?

[ScoutMomAng 10]

I have asked my sister about another pack but this is where he goes to school so all his friends are there. I can see your point about the fundraising, we have had that issue in our pack when my husband was the pack master. Our answer then was to give everyboy a balance sheet. The amount that they fundraised for the pack was credited to their "account", when something came up that the parent wanted to use their account for that is what they did. When they ran out they understood they had to pay out of pocket. It didn't always work either but I don't know that there is a solution to that. However, if the committee got together before the fundraiser and decided how much money they needed to run their pack then that is what they should of told the boys they had to raise. If they didn't raise that then they should take out the uncessary items. But to prohibit a boy from participating in the Pinewood Derby? That just goes a little too far if you ask me. There is so much a boy can learn from building his own car and participating in a competition with something he built himself. I still don't think they should charge for activities they have no guarantee that the boy can or cannot attend, (hay ride).

[Eamonn 61]

When I was CM we would meet and do the annual plan. The Plan led to the budget. This was then worked on till we came to the cost of keeping a Lad in Pack 155 for a year.

I don't know if you have ever seen the Trial's End Popcorn "Ideal year of Scouting" We were doing this long before they came up with it. Of course we weren't doing it in units of popcorn!!

We were a pack chartered by the Catholic Church and a good many of our Cub Scouts went to the Catholic School. The School did have a lot of fund raising events. In fact the very first day I dropped OJ off I left the school with 5 cases of candy bars!! A lot of the boys played soccer, the soccer teams had fund raising events. So we had parents come and say "Please just tell me what it is going to cost and I'll write a check."

Back then it was costing about $125.00 a year. I won't go into everything it covered. We still offered fund raising events and the first $125.00 went to the pack, after that the boy could use the money for resident cub camp or uniforms. When he moved into a troop the money went with him. If he didn't the money went into Pack funds.

If I were your Sister, I think I would be looking for a pack with a better program.

If the little fellow has his heart set on this one I would write to the CC asking for a better explanation of how the money was going to be spent and seeing if there was a payment plan. Better yet I would volunteer my services to become a member of the pack committee.

While I don't like what they are doing. I don't think they are breaking any BSA rules. I can't talk for the Chartering Organization, in fact it could be the CO that has asked them to do things this way? I think it's a little crazy, but they must have parents who are happy with this.

That other pack is sounding better and better

[Bob White 20]

Just sign my name to Eamonn's post

 

BW

[Eagle1973 10]

While I agree that an up front fee of that magnitude ridiculous, I have to ask if your sister is on the committee. If not, maybe she could have nipped in the bud, if she was.

 

Now that the fee has been imposed, I would talk with other parents and come up with an alternative to be considered by the committee.

 

Does the Pack do fund raisers? Where is that money? WHat is it used for?

 

When we have a special function, we charge at least a minimum amount, at time of sign up. That way we cut down on the no shows. We pay as you go, but you must be organized with lots of parental involvement so that function reservation deadlines aren't missed.

 

Hopefully, the Pack will be able to offset the fee for those in need, or maybe come up with a payment plan. It really sounds like to me that some overworked committee member had had enough and decided to go to the extreme.

 

Hopefully, we won't lose a Scout because of this.

[EagleInKY 14]

Our pack and troop has these debates every year. Some don't like doing fundraising- although, as a unit - we do them very well.

 

Some would prefer a large sum to cover all items up front, no fundraising, no "nickle-and-diming" throughout the year. These are the folks that would support the $100+ annual fee.

 

Others prefer a lower annual fee and a "pay as you go". This is often eases the financial burden and allows families to make decisions on a case-by-case basis.

 

The third option (the one I prefer), is to come up with that annual amount you need, and then use your popcorn profits to bring it down to a reasonable amount for each boy. This is what our pack does, and it seems to be fairly well received. We have not gone as far as crediting individual boys for their efforts, but it has been discussed. Our sales have always been good, so we haven't needed to resort to that.

 

In our troop, we still do "pay as you go". This has been because of the wide variety of costs for activities. We're going to reevaluate that this year.

[nldscout 18]

WHile it may seem high, to do a quality program does take money. I would though ask for w detail breakdown of what is included. Is any camping included?

 

As to what happens if you withhold him attending or if he misses it because of another reason, then that money is lost.

 

"I thought scouting was supposed to be for every boy everywhere."

 

No, I know of nothing that says you must include everyone. Does anyone have that in the R&R?

[EagleInKY 14]

I believe your scout executive would say that no boy should be denied scouting due to financial burdens. Councils provide assistance to low-income families in the way of reduced camp fees, etc. Packs and troops should allow scouts to "earn" their fees as much as possible. Selling popcorn, working at a car wash, selling candy, etc. are all methods that a unit can use to allow boys to earn a portion of their fees. Units who say "the fee is $100 and you have no choice but to pay" may be acting within the letter of the law, but are certainly not exhibiting the spirit of scouting. (IMHO).

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I agree generally with what other posters have said, and I'll just add this. I've never heard of the idea of charging for a year's worth of events up front. It does not make sense to me. While I understand the administrative headaches involved in charging $10 for the blue and gold dinner, $17.50 for the hayride, and whatever for whatever, close to the time of each event (what EagleInKy calls "pay as you go," I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. As ScoutMomAng says, it's not reasonable to charge every boy for an event they may not attend, particularly if the cost is "significant" (whatever that my mean to each person.)

 

And of course, as others have said, the answer is fundraising. My son's pack had had financial problems for years, selling popcorn but in a rather lackluster fashion and even missing a year. The result of which, as I understand it, was that the then-Cubmaster loaned the pack most of the recharter fee in the spring and was repaid from dues the following fall. Not an ideal situation. This provided the pack with sufficient motivation to sell enough popcorn to raise sufficient funds to at least break even overall the following year, but things were still not ideal. It was at this point that a new Cubmaster and Assistant Cubmaster (me) took over, and the easiest decision to make was to place much more emphasis on the popcorn sale, including doing a show-and-sell, which the pack had never done before, and also having a very serious talk with the boys and parents at a pack meeting about the program we could have, and even the events we could do at greatly reduced "pay as you go" costs, if we all took the popcorn sale seriously for once. That one year completely turned the pack's finances around, including allowing us to reduce pack dues to $20 the following year, and it is my understanding that the pack has continued to have very successful popcorn sales with the resulting benefits for the program. And, by the way, this was all done without creating "Scout accounts" as an incentive. I think the top 5 sellers get a gift certificate to the local sporting goods store (and Scout-stuff distributor) in addition to the prize from Trail's End, and I am talking about $20 and down in gift certificates. Most of the "incentive" has been "we have to do this, so let's do it," and to the surprise of some (including me), that has been mostly enough.

[nldscout 18]

EagleInKY said

 

" I believe your scout executive would say that no boy should be denied scouting due to financial burdens. Councils provide assistance to low-income families in the way of reduced camp fees, etc."

 

Most councils have money(Scout Reach) for registration, camps, uniform assistance, but I know ow none the underwrite a units activities. While they beleive that no scout should be denied the chance, if the parents don't pay, who does? We have had parents say I can't or won't pay, but my son should be allowed to do this event anyway. Our answer is, I am sorry, but payment is requred to participate. There are lots of things that scouting offers that cost major $$$, like Jambo, camps and High Adventure. If parents want son to go they sometimes have to figure out a way or son doesn't get to go. It may sound cold hearted, but all the good things do cost.

[EagleInKY 14]

nldscout - We're essentially saying the same thing. Scoutreach and Camperships can defray the cost of council- and district- provided activities (and perhaps uniforms). If the unit provides an opportunity for the scout to earn his way, then there is no money-related excuse for not being able to participate.

 

In your example, you are using "pay as you go". Therefore, a family can decide on a case by case whether they can afford it. If a scout wants to go on the big whitewater rafting trip, he has two choices (1) pay for it, (2) earn credit via fundraisers. If he can't do either, then he can't go. But, if a unit says it's $100 to participate for the year, like it or leave it, I don't agree.

[Twocubdad 665]

$135 is not out of line for the average cost of having a Scout in a pack. That's maybe $10-15 more than our pack's budget, but in the ballpark. Our dues cover about half our budget with the other half coming from popcorn sales.

 

I agree with SMA that families shouldn't have to pay for activities they don't participate in. I wouldn't want our pack to pay the fees for things like camporees, summer camp or special outings like a weekend on the USS Yorktown where only a portion of the pack attends We also charge a nominal fee (usually $5 per person) for food on campouts.

 

If a pack chooses to forgo fundraising and simply asks everyone to pony up the full amount, that's their perogative. There's nothing that says the pack has to provide Scouts/families the opportunity to raise money to pay for participating in Scouting. If it's an issue to you, go out an wash cars one Saturday and use the money you make to pay your pack dues. Frankly, in the time I spend supervising my son's popcorn enterprise, I could easily make the money to pay his dues. Shoot, I spend that much buying popcorn!

 

The second issue is collections/enforcement. SMA doesn't say if her sister can't afford the $135 or if she thinks it's too much and just doesn't want to pay. If it is a matter of financial hardship, has she asked what assistance is available? Our pack often forgives dues for Scouts who truely can't afford it. There are individuals in the pack (myself included) who are willing to write a check to help if needed. That doesn't even get into assistance available from the Council.

 

But what is a unit to do if a family just refuses to pay? How would you suggest they enforce payment of dues? Pinewood Derby kits and trophies cost the pack money. It's one thing if a boy's registration is current, but how long are they to wait at recharter time?

 

I have responsibilities for a pack with a $10,000+ budget. I'm camp director for a day camp with a $30,000+ budget. I'm amazed at the number of people who think that just because we're Scouts we should be lax about collecting money. I even get this from our DE. "Oh well, they're a ScoutReach unit, we'll just call it a campership." But I guarantee you don't want to be standing near a fan the day we are over budget. I have a fiduciary responsibility to the boys/families/unit/council/donors who pay for the programs. That means that sometimes I have to be the son of a gun who stands at the door making sure everyone has paid.

 

[Eamonn 61]

While I can't really speak for our SE. I feel sure that he is not going to get involved in unit activities, that are "OK Scout type" activities. If you ask me he has no business doing so. The program comes from the pack or unit and is funded by the pack or unit. If there are people who can't afford to participate, the unit has to look at what they are doing and see if it is in the best interest of the unit. They or the chartering organization might decide that they will help out if they want to or if they can.

Our council does offer financial assistance with events that it organizes. These being camp,the National Jamboree and Council high adventure activities and training.

It is a shame that some units end up doing activities that come from the interests of a few. But even that can be a good thing.

I don't fishing, leave it to me and fishing will never be an activity that I would do. When I was CM the Assistant CM, loved to fish. When we did the annual plan he pushed fish through. We had a month of Cubscout fishing ideas which ended in a pack fishing derby. The kids really enjoyed it and the parents were behind it. His love of fishing added a lot to our program.

Some of the guys liked ice hockey, again I am not a lover of the game. After I left a pack trip to a Penguin game was added. The cheapest seats were $22.00 and some parents came to me saying that it cost too much, that a family would spent over $100.00. I of course could do nothing and would not have done even if I could.As it turned out the night that they went was the night that Mario make his come back, the Cubscouts that went got to meet him and he signed everything that they pushed under his nose. They had a great time, they spent an evening which will become a memory that they will cherish for a very long time. Is it fair that these little fellows got to do this, while others didn't? I know that the pack didn't offer an opportunity to raise money for this outing. It did say that Cub Scouts with funds in their account could use them to attend. At the end of the day this trip came from the leaders was OKed by the pack committee, was within the guide that says sporting events are fine. They went ahead, it didn't cost the pack any money, the kids had a good time, they wore their Sunday best uniforms they were great little ambassador's for Cub Scouting. The Leaders had a great time, a few did mention that going to a dry hockey game was a new experience. One family enjoyed it so much that they went and bought season tickets for the entire family.

During my term as SM, we camped all over England and a lot in other countries,we never ever held a pay for camp fund raising event. The thought never crossed our minds. At that time the British Scout Association had "Bob a job week." This was the one week a year when Scouts could ask for payment for doing a good turn. A Bob was a shilling now five new pence (about 8 cents) The money helped pay the registration fee and the left over was used to pay for camp. The boys would go door to door knocking and asking for "Bob a jobs." This was of course in kinder times, it would never pass muster today. Our Scouts paid so much a week into their camp bank.

Parents could ask the troop committee to help. This was managed in such a way as the Troop Leaders were not involved. I think if the truth were ever to come out these apps never made it to the committee. The Committee Chair a local Council Member (City Council) who was a local business man took it upon himself to visit the family and do the business.

If Scouting particularly Cubscouting is to be home and neighborhood based, we have to use the resources that are available in our local community. We plan programs that fit in with what the families in that neighborhood can afford. A unit may or may not have the funds to offer assistance to the family that can't afford to participate in certain activities. Sad to say this will happen from time to time. If it is happening all the time there is a problem with the program.

At times our PLC members do have a problem with seeing the cost of events. Sure that week working on the Merit Badge programs offered at Disney seems like a great idea. There is nothing to stop us from doing it. How much is it going to cost? How many fund raising events will we need to get it to a level where most of your patrol members can afford it? Do you guys want to spent all that time raising funds for a week at Disney? Just as we adults can sell an idea we can help these Lads see that what seems like a good idea might not be in the best interest of the Scouts they are representing. The same must hold true with the adults.

Eamonn.

[ScoutNut 147]

SMA - I too feel that $135 is rather high. Especially when it look like a specialized fee (den?) rather than an overall Pack Dues type of fee.

 

What I would do is talk to the Pack's Committee Chairman and it's Treasurer. Get a breakout of what exactly this fee covers and the cost of each item. Then get a copy of the Pack's financial report for last year and this year. All of this information should be available to all families. With this info she should be able to see exactly where the Packs money is going and what they do and don't pay for.

 

If this fee does only cover special events and den dues then your sister should talk to the CC about paying for only what they plan on attending. If the Pack insists on her paying for events they do not plan on attending and will not allow any rebates for missed outings or offer any type of installment/fundraising plan, then your sister has a decision to make. She can either stay there and pay for stuff her son is not using or find a different Pack which might not have his friends, but is better run and ultimately give her son a better program.

 

.