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Zahnada

Now, when did it actually work?

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Bob,

That was an uncalled for comment! I will not even dignify it with an answer. Once again, it's Bob White apology time!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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"EagleDad in his example did not change the program he was working toward it. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. Others however know the program and work away from because they see a "better" way. I think lots of people have a big problem with that because it ends up chasing scouts away. "

 

Bob, were you talking about my example? Eagledad hasn't posted on this subject in a few days. Just trying to keep track on my "Bob-O-Meter". :) Just kidding. You and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but I'm always curious as to your opinion on things.

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My apologies to both EagleDad and EagleInKY for getting your names confused. Mia Culpa. From where a Bobwhite sits all you high soaring birds look alike!:)

 

See Ed I have no problem admitting when I make a mistake.

 

But let's get back to the topic. You seem to be custom made to answer Zahnada's question. You have frequently posted of how you don't see the methods written in stone and being flexible to interpretation. You have often shared how you do things differently from the training and handbooks, but you never told us the results.

 

Share just one to prove Zahnada's point for him. Tell us of your successes by not using the program as it was developed to be used.

 

You were unable to give an example of how using the program ever failed, so this is your chance to shine. Wow us!

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Wow us????? Why would I want to subject myself to your microscopic judgment? This and the other thread dealing with the same subject are self-service and have no point except to make you the "expert". Bully for you! You are a legend in your own mind!

 

Show us where the BSA prohibits mixed age patrols? Show us where the BSA states the NSP MUST be used?

 

Since you are the self-professed expert it should be easy for you!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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"Show us where the BSA prohibits mixed age patrols? Show us where the BSA states the NSP MUST be used?"

 

For the umpteenth time Ed, It doesn't say that. We all agree it doesn't say that.

 

Find me one post where I have ever claimed to be an expert on anything.

 

All the BSA suggests is 'this is the program and it works'. 'Do this and you will have a scouting program'. Why would you expend the time and energy to change what works, and what Scouting says is Scouting?

 

Why risk doing something that might not work? Has changing it worked for your troop Ed?

 

I am not the expert, the BSA is, I did nothing more than what thousands have done and continue to do...follow the program. I just don't understand your resentment about that, or your determination to continue to do things differently when it has obviously not worked.

 

 

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Oldgreyeagle

You said

Now Dan, I and Ed never said we were doing away with patrols as a method of scouting

and

I dont see anywhere that Ed or I said that we would eliminate Patrols or change their structure of having members who elect a patrol leader and the patrol leader selects an assistant

 

All I said was tweaking the patrol method, how in the world did you get to this point? Is that what you think a tweak is?

Not having New Scout Patrols seem like a huge tweak to me.

 

Sorry but I see no difference in tweaking advancements and tweaking the patrols.

Once again I ask, are you picking and choosing the methods to follow and which ones you can change.

Seems to me that you are putting some methods above the others.

 

According to the BSA website

 

The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each.

 

I say the troop only tweaked the advancement requirement, they did not add anything that was not in the book.

 

Why would a SM or ASM have this book?

BSA publication #33088D titled Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures 2002.

 

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I think to equate using mixed-aged patrols to dropping the Scout Law or dropping camping is pretty inane. Do we all have to sell popcorn to be delivering the scouting program the boys were promised? Sheesh. Obviously, there is a continuum here, and the further away from the prescribed program you get, the more subject to criticism you will be--and righfully so. But modifying specific program elements to deal with the real life circumstances are far from a

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I think to equate using mixed-aged patrols to dropping the Scout Law or dropping camping is pretty inane. Do we all have to sell popcorn to be delivering the scouting program the boys were promised? Sheesh. Obviously, there is a continuum here, and the further away from the prescribed program you get, the more subject to criticism you will be--and righfully so. But modifying specific program elements to deal with the real life circumstances are far from abandoning the ideals or methods of scouting. Furthermore, I personally don't find it all that persuasive that "top men" have decided what works best--they've changed over time, and they aren't infallible. If you think the prescribed program is better than the tweaks, tell us why.

And Dan, the person who keeps track of advancement for your troop should certainly have a copy of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures.

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Hunt writes

"Do we all have to sell popcorn to be delivering the scouting program the boys were promised?"

 

Popcorn sales is not a method of scouting, the patrol method is.

 

Popcorn sales is not a BSA national program it is a council activity, BSA national has nothing to do with Popcorn sales.

 

Popcorn sales does not appear in any leadership training, adult handbook, or youth handbook in scouting. The Patrol method does.

 

Outdoor activities, advancement, uniforming, the Ideals, they are all Methods of scouting. So they are indeed related and equal. If tweaking with one is Okay then so must tweaking with others. If you do not agree then show me the rule that says otherwise, afterall that seems to be the mantra here. 'If there is no rule then it must be okay', right? So where do you find you can change the patrol method but nothing else? Who controls the national tweaking button?

 

 

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Ok dan, I was wrong to talk about tweaking patrols especially since I had no idea what the meaning of the word "tweaking" meant The real funny thing is the troop I serve uses new scout patrols and in trying to make a point, I did end up needing to barbecue my shoes because I got my foot firmly implanted in my mouth. However, distractions aside, you asked where it was written that BSA advancement requirements could not be added to or subtracted from. You said you doubted such a policy existed. The reference has been supplied to you. Your unit advancement chairman should have this reference. Now, where do we go from here?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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Spin it all you want Bob. You are good at that! Adding to advancement requirements is in no way the same as tweaking the patrol method do it works in you unit. Additions to or subtractions from the advancement & merit badge requirements is prohibited! Says so in the Advancement Committee Policy & Procedures as well as many other places. Tweaks to the patrol or any other method of Scouting is not!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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You keep saying its OK Ed but you still haven't given a single example of when you did and it worked. Even the person who started the thread hasn't.

 

Ed this thread was practically designed for you. You are a huge proponent for tweaking.

 

We have a thread asking for an example of how using the Scouting program ever failed...no one could come up with one.

 

We have a thread on when changing the program worked...No one could come up with one.

 

Ed would you consider starting a thread asking for examples of "How using the program as designed by the BSA succeeded"? Do you think it would be able to get more examples than we have seen on the two threads combined so far?

 

Is that not reason enough to stick to the methods of the program?

 

Why not give it a try Ed. You host the thread and let's see what happens.

 

Vote Early, Vote often,

Bob White

 

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Hunt said

the person who keeps track of advancement for your troop should certainly have a copy of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures

 

But I asked why a SM or ASM would have this book?!?!

 

Seems like this info should be in the SM handbook.

 

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I understand what you mean dan, that thing about not adding to or subtracting from requirements should probably be in the Scoutmasters handbook. It might be as far as I know, but I dont have one to check, I'll leave it up to others to check.

 

In the meantime I guess the BSA expects the Troop Committee to oversee the troop and its activities and assure the program is being adhered too. That would include the Advancement Chair letting the Scoutmaster and assistant scoutmasters know they cant add to or subtract from the requirements.

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Almost everyone that has posted on this thread has said that it is okay to tweak the BSA program. I give an example of a tweak to the program. And everyone said the troop cannot do this, Well yes they can and have, just like troops that tell a scout which patrol he will be in.

If I go by most of the other posters here, I will just say that the rule not to change advancement is only a suggestion on how to run the program. I wish I had the little booklet number 33088D to read, but I do not, I am sure I could find a loophole, just like troops that have that change other parts of the program.

If you guys can tweak the Patrol method, than other troops can tweak Ideals, Outdoor Programs, Advancement, Associations with Adults, Personal Growth, Leadership Development, Uniform.

If you have tweaked the program, you should not cast stones at other units that have tweaked it.

 

What I have gotten out of this thread is that most posters on this thread do not believe it when the BSA says.

 

The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each.

 

I posted this early in this discussion, but as usual it was ignored. Most posters here are putting some methods over other ones, if you do that you are not following the BSA program, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

 

In case you could not read between the lines I do not agree with the troops requirement. I was really questioning this with the troop. At this time the troop just wants me to go away, because I am questioning the addition to a requirement.

 

Well one thing you can say for this troop is that if you have earned Eagle in this troop, you have really earned it, I think about 1 percent of the scouts that join this troop become Eagle.

 

Zahnada

A tip for you, if things do not go your way do not run away, it is not very scout like.

 

Grumpy

I do believe you added nothing to this discussion.

 

If only I knew what I know now when my son joined this troop!

 

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