Scouting Heritage MB

[Kudu 186]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

Just a quick note: I don't remember Scott asserting that B-P stole the Patrol System from Seton. I'd be happy to look at any such specific passages you may have in mind.

 

What Seton and Beard introduced to Scouting was the use of word games to pretend that the Patrol System (and Scouting in general) is anything you say it is, as long as you use words such as "Patrol" or "Scoutcraft" (the BSA now uses both terms to mean EDGE theory, for instance).

 

Such word games appeal to our modern use of the term "Patrol Method" to mean little "controlled failure" leadership skills laboratories cramped into small established campsites under the close supervision of two-deep helicopters.

 

The comparison of Seton's division of Woodcraft Tribes into Bands is an analogy to Troops and Patrols, not a true comparison.

 

For instance, take Scott's description of Seton's Silver Bay encampment:

 

"At Silver Bay, groups of six boys, each led by an adult, raised shelters, cooked meals, and met each evening around campfires hosted by Seton" (page 111).

 

That description of an adult-led Band is not far from what would soon become the YMCA's Patrol leadership theory in the BSA:

 

"The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master

 

"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan"

 

See:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm

 

And for Seton's Tribe and Band structure:

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/organization/organization.htm

[Scouter99 265]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

Chapter 4, "Scouting for Boys," discusses in detail the concepts and specific items BP lifted from Seton, setting the stage with its opening paragraph:

"Though the tremendous success of Aids to Scouting led Baden-Powell down the path to youth training, he had failed to recognize what in his manual appealed so strongly to youthful readers-his detailed tips on scouting-and gone off track adopting the medieval knight as the model for his envisioned organization. Seton's Birch-Bark Roll seems to have opened Baden-Powell's eyes to the opportunity he was close to missing, though his initial response to its author gave no indication of its influence on his thinking."

He continues, praising Seton's use of woodcraft, Indian lore, and games in contrast to other programs, including BP: "Most youth organizations of the day were Iong on regimentation and short on fun, and Baden-Powell like many others had failed to see the outdoors as a training ground for life." (71)

 

Advancement and the Scout Oath and Law, pg 79:

"Yet the similarities were extensive. Woodcraft Indians passed a series of tests to become "first class braves." Scouts similarly graduated from "second class" to "first class." Woodcraft included mastery of knots, fire making, first aid, hiking, and reading wilderness signs; so did Scouting for Boys. Seton listed proficiency tests by which Indians earned 'honors,' 24 of which qualified a member as a 'Sachem.' In Scouting, that acquisition of 24 honor badges brought the status of 'Silver Wolf.' Seton's Woodcraft Indians took a vow and obeyed ten laws; BP's Scouts took an Oath and followed nine laws.

"New Indians received a horsehair 'scalp' signifying personal honor; it could be lost through failure in a competition or task, and later regained upon approval by the Tribe Council. The First Class badge of Scouting could similarly be lost, then regained by a good deed as certified by a Court of Honor.

"Seton told the Woodcraft Indian: "Hold your word of honour sacred." The First Law of Scouting was, "A Scout's Honour is to be trusted." Seton's Indians were to "Be helpful," while a Scout's duty was "to be useful and to help others." Seton told his Indians: "Obedience is the first duty of the Woodcrafter." Baden-Powell wrote: "A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or Scoutmaster without question." The Birch-Bark Roll instructed Woodcraft Indians: "Be joyful. Seek the joy of being alive." Similarly, according to Scouting for Boys, "A scout goes about with a smile on him and whistling. It cheers him and cheers other people, especially in times of danger, for he keeps it up all the same."

 

Patrols, pg 82

Before BP got hold of the Birch-Bark Roll, he was tinkering with a knighthood theme which didn't appeal to anyone. Knights are the antithesis of a patrol; they're solitary figures on personal quests.

Scott quotes Richards' book: "The Birch-Bark Roll offered 'a coherent scheme for organizing boys into manageable self-governing units. Its detailed system of outdoor training, its rules, honors, games, noncompetitive standards of excellence, and even its philosophy that (manhood, not scholarship is the first aim of education,' could not have failed to kindle Baden-Powell's imagination about the possibilities for his own Scouting aspirations. However conscientious Baden-Powell may have been about acknowledging his sources (and in fact he was not overly scrupulous about it), the extraordinary appropriateness of Seton's Indians to what Baden-Powell was hoping to achieve could not have easily been resisted. Beneath the Indian trapping, for which BP had no use, lurked an organizational model that provided solutions for almost every problem he faced and that ... could be translated into the language of Scouting without difficulty.'"

 

Games

You've now also introduced games as Seton/Beard's contributions to the detriment of the program, but again you have failed to consider that BP took Seton's games and put them in Scouting for Boys. If BP thought they were good enough to steal for his program, why would you think that they're bad?

On page 80: "Setonites also reproached Baden-Powell for lifting games from the novel Two Little Savages, which Seton had sent him along with the Birch-Bark Roll. Seton's "Quicksight" game helped Woodcrafter develop their powers of observation by counting the spots on a card flashed before their eyes; Scouts learned the game as 'Spottyface.' Other games seemed to have been adopted by Baden-Powell, and though some were common, others appeared to have come straight from the pages of the Birch-Bark Roll with, as Seton complained, mere changes in name."

 

And your issue with Seton presiding over the camp fire at Silver Bay? BP led the fire at Brownsea, assigned the patrols, made the names and flags. pg 77.

 

I admire, in general, your dedication to the patrol method and agree with some of your criticisms of more recent changes to the program, but it seems that you have a BP Blindness which is preventing you from acknowledging BPs own learning curve and shortcomings; has you attributing Seton's ideas to BP only where they enhance BP's stature; and (when you don't see BP's appropriations of them) ironically maligning Seton's contributions.

 

BP had no patrol method until he saw Seton's organizational structure and renamed it. He had no advancement structure until he saw Seton's system of merits. BP injected Seton's games into the British program, so we cannot say that Seton's continued use of his own games in the American program were a diversion from BP's methods. BP didn't even invent the term Boy Scout (p 74). What BP had was an abundance of charisma, and a popular book with an existing international audience; what he needed was a way to turn it into a program, and he got that from Seton.

[Kudu 186]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

I quoted Scott:

 

"At Silver Bay, groups of six boys, each led by an adult, raised shelters, cooked meals, and met each evening around campfires hosted by Seton" (page 111).

 

Scouter99 commented:

 

And your issue with Seton presiding over the camp fire at Silver Bay? BP led the fire at Brownsea, assigned the patrols, made the names and flags. pg 77

 

Um, yes that is an "issue" for me.

 

The central issue.

 

You see Seton presiding over the Silver Bay campfire, and Baden-Powell doing the same thing at Brownsea.

 

I see Seton forming Patrols of six boys led by ADULT Patrol Leaders, and Baden-Powell's Patrols spread around Brownsea island without adult supervision.

 

THE BSA UNDER CHIEF SCOUT SETON:

 

"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols...The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader"

[Kudu 186]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

Scouter99 commented

 

Patrols, pg 82

 

"The Birch-Bark Roll offered 'a coherent scheme for organizing boys into manageable self-governing units...

 

Scott is quoting the rabidly anti-Baden-Powell leftist Michael Rosenthal.

 

I had marked the facing page because it was the first time I had ever seen David Scott agree with Tim Jeal.

 

Ever :-/

 

However, Jeal does not agree with Rosenthal:

 

"Seton's most serious accusations should not be taken seriously, nor should Michael Rosenthal's recent argument that Baden-Powell found in the structure of the Woodcraft Indians 'an organizational model that provided solutions for almost every problem he faced'." There were indeed similarities between Seton's Indian 'bands' and Baden-Powell's Boy Scout 'patrols'. Both were placed under a boy leader who was himself under the more distant authority of an adult, but there were many other precedents which Baden-Powell could just as well have chosen to follow. When the True Blue War Library was running its Boy Scout stories, the newspaper inaugurated a boys' society called 'The True and Trusty Band'. Members swore to obey various laws, and joined groups of from six to eight under a boy captain. There were secret signs, and badges to be won.

 

"In the 5th Dragoon Guards and in the S. A.C., Baden-Powell had trained men in groups of six under an N. C.O. rather than an officer, and had long been an admirer of the public school system of supervision by senior boys. Seton's bands were considered viable at anything between 15 and 50 boys; Baden-Powell therefore followed his own precedents in determining the number for each Scout patrol. The name itself came from his own book Cavalry Instruction (1887), in which he had called all small scouting groups 'patrols'. Nor is Rosenthal correct in thinking that Baden-Powell derived his idea for First- and Second-Class Scouts from Seton's division of his Indians into Braves and Warriors. Scouts in the 5th Dragoon Guards had been divided by ability and knowledge into 'First and Second Class' [Jeal, The Boy-Man, page 380].

 

I will try to respond to more of your quoted passages, as best as this poor sufferer of "BP Blindness" is able. :-/

[Scouter99 265]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

I will try to respond to more of your quoted passages, as best as this poor sufferer of "BP Blindness" is able. :-/

You're welcome to, and I enjoyed your quotes for their insight, but I'm not looking to engage you in a debate; you asked me to provide the passages in Scott's book that had informed my statements, I did. Very little of history is concrete, we all interpret though a perspective.

[Kudu 186]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

I'm just posting what I learned from Tim Jeal's biography of Baden-Powell.

 

I had hoped to Google up some of my own posts from 15 years ago, in which I also give examples of Baden-Powell "borrowing" the badge system and other program elements (including some Birch Bark games) from Seton's program.

 

As for my "B-P-Blindness," only my legendary modesty prevents me from pointing out that I was the first person in the world to provide Seton's (and Beard's) entire pre-Scouting handbook on the Internet. In the years before Google Books and the rise of the Gutenberg Project, my Boy Scout Website was the only such digital reference anywhere, including the links on Wikipedia and the Seton Institute itself.

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/seton/birch/index.htm

 

http://inquiry.net/traditional/beard/pioneers/index.htm

 

B-P's military patrols, however, (and his military scout games like Capture the Flag, Spider & Fly, etc.) predate Seton. Real Patrols are the reason that Scouting became overwhelmingly popular with boys. Their absence now is why most American boys hate Scouting as much as they would hate sports if we removed the physical distance elements of any game and replaced them with "leadership skills."

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/b-p/aids2scouting/a2s_167.htm

[Kudu 186]

　

A NOTE TO YOUNG READERS:

 

So you Googled "Baden-Powell" and "Scouting Heritage Merit Badge" and found this thread? Here is a checklist you can use to compare Baden-Powell's "Patrol System," to your Troop's "Patrol Method."

　

When camping as a Troop, how far apart do you camp your Patrols?

a) 300 feet (Patrol System)

b) 5-20 feet (Patrol Method)

 

　

From whom did you learn your Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class skills?

a) My Patrol Leader, of course (Patrol System)

b) Troop Guide, Troop Instructors, and strangers at summer camp (Patrol Method)

　

　

Who officially confirmed you as a Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class Scout?

a) My Patrol Leader on a Patrol Hike (Patrol System)

b) Mommies and daddies at a Board of Review (Patrol Method)

 

 

What is a Troop committee?

a) Patrol Leaders, of course. There is no adult committee (Patrol System)

b) Parents (Patrol Method)

　

　

Who controls the Troop's money?

a) The Patrol Leaders, of course (Patrol System)

b) Some adult (Patrol Method)

　

　

How long have you had the same Patrol Leader?

a) As long as I have been in Scouts, but he's our best woodsman (Patrol System)

b) We vote for a new one every six (6) months (Patrol Method)

　

　

What is the purpose of your Patrol?

a) To explore the woods by ourselves (Patrol System)

b) To learn "leadership skills" next to other Patrols (Patrol Method)

　

 

Which do you think is actually boy-run, the Patrol System or the Patrol Method?

a) Baden-Powell's Patrol System, of course

b) My Scouting Heritage Merit Badge Counselor says there is no difference! (Patrol Method)