The Importance of Uniforming

[BSA24 10]

> The termination WAS out of my control

 

The nature of how people end up poor is a subjective and political one. You've used yourself as your example, so I can't really contradict it with support without personally attacking you, so I won't try.

 

I'll leave it at this: I am a libertarian. I am also a very spiritual person who believes we project the world around us. We make what happens to us through our choices. That's how the universe works.

 

I pulled myself up. I expect others to do the same. Some people gave me help, but also demanded that I give my all. If my cable TV is still connected, but I am asking for an handout, I do not deserve it. TV is not a necessity, and I believe it is stealing to have TV service and take other people's assistance.

 

 

 

[Wood_Owl 10]

Are we good role models?

 

The topic has gone from discussing the merits of wearing uniforms, to interpersonal arguments.

 

In life, we don't get to choose if we are a role model to our Scouts. We are. We only get to choose wether we are a good role model, or a poor one. Be the Scout you want your Scouts to be.

[johnponz 14]

I am actually pretty much in agreement with BSA 24's last post.

 

I think the internet is a difficult communications tool because we all tend to talk in absolutes when the world does not work that way. The world works in combinations. There is the whole nature vs. nurture argument, and the truth lies in the middle. Genes are important, but the way the environment acts on those genes is also important.

In this case some poverty is caused by choices and some by misfortune. When misfortune hits, we have to figure out a way to minimize it and move on. Sometimes this requires temporary help, and I am ok with that.

 

There is another thread going regarding "giving out knots arbitrarily," which is where I had my real issues with BSA 24 because he seemed to say that anyone could wear any insignia they wanted as long as they were having fun. I believe that he miscommunicated his thoughts there and really the more precise explanation is in his last post.

 

I too, would not approach a person who was wearing their uniform incorrectly unless if they asked me. I tend to agree that it causes more harm than good. My focus is a little different than BSA 24's but the result is the same. I do wear my own uniform correctly down to square knots pointing in the correct direction as an example of what I believe all should do. If others do not I do not really care as there are more important battles to fight, and losing capital pointing out uniform violations does not generally get you anywhere.

 

This is my last post on this thread because I believe it has played itself out. I apologize to BSA24 if I acted unscoutlike in any of my above posts.

 

Scouting is a wide brotherhood and there is room for many viewpoints, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, heck even the Socialist party.

 

That is one of the things I have always liked about Scouting. Different viewpoints and personal opinions can come together to teach the youth important values and help build character.

 

[acco40 95]

Scouting is a private organization - the BSA has gone to the U.S. Supreme Court to fight for that.

 

Scouting costs money. Uniforms, crafts, camping equipment, travel, etc.

 

Scouting has vehicles for raising money - popcorn sales, public goodwill, etc.

 

I don't buy the money issue wrt to proper uniforming. It is all a priority thing. Regardless of how much a uniform costs, I've seen families complain. Heck, in my neck of the woods it costs $450 to play sports for the local high school and not to many blink an eye at that, yet then complain vociferously about the cost of a BSA uniform.

 

One of the things we did as a troop (or should I say, gave the troop the opportunity to do) was to help our county with a program that helped financially distraught families. Each week, area churches, including our CO and the church I attend (two different ones), house families for a week and give them food, shelter, basic services, etc. As a troop, we also serve them, eat with them, interact with them, etc. It was an eye opener for my kids. Some of the homeless men were once Scouts themselves and were more appreciative of the camaraderie than they were of the food, shelter, showers, haircuts, etc. I was very appreciative that my children were able to see that these were "normal" people, just like them and not some sort of pariahs. Race didn't enter into the equation much. The overwhelming majority of the volunteers and recipients were white.

 

I grew up witnessing the phone disconnected, gas turned off, cars repossessed, etc. As a teen, I felt overwhelming embarrassment - even though I had nothing to do with it. Like GWTW, I felt like As God is my witness, as God is my witness they're not going to lick me. I'm going to live through this and when it's all over, I'll never be hungry again. No, nor any of my folk. If I have to lie, steal, cheat or kill. As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again. - not very Scout like but I know the feeling. Luckily, no lying, stealing, cheating or killing was needed for me to become self sufficient and support a family. I've been laid off but I also agree with BSA24 - folks with two cars, cable TV, cell phone service, internet connections, computers, etc. claim poverty all too frequently.

[BadenP 93]

BSA24

 

Your comments speak for themselves and truly portray the stereotype most outsiders have of the BSA being a White Upper Class Elitist organization. You and Callays lack of understanding about the plight of not only the poor but of the people who have lost everything in this recession is truly appalling to say the least. Your radical viewpoints, if you indeed discuss them with your troop would make you unfit as a scout leader. Since you are so well off apparently I dare you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or soup kitchen or food bank for a period of time and talk to those people whom you claim "want to be poor". I have and still do. If nothing else it would open your eyes to the inaccuracies and ignorance of your statements about the poor in this country,and help you see the reality firsthand, Callay the same goes for you.

[BSA24 10]

BadenP:

 

"Resentment is like drinking poison hoping the other fellow will die. But that's not what happens."

[BadenP 93]

BSA24

 

Your last comment just continues to prove your indifference, arrogance, and ignorance of the reality of the world around you. I hope you enjoy living in your little plastic bubble world for now because one day it will break and reality will come crashing down on you hard. Who knows even you could wind up poor and destitute someday, and some bozo will come up to you living on the street in a container box and say to you, "You choose to be poor", that is what is called poetic justice.

[BSA24 10]

Are you done yet? I'm waiting for you to get it all out of your system. It's all your own internal process. You've got yourself an imaginary enemy, and you apparently need to knock him around a little bit to get out some frustration. I'm willing to serve in that role if it makes you feel better.

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939 28]

BadenP,

 

You sling "White Upper Class Elitist" at us as if were some kind of nasty epithet - as if folks will shun BSA because of "the stereotype most outsiders have of the BSA being a White Upper Class Elitist organization." Really? What's wrong with white people? Why do these outsiders (and you apparently) dislike white people? Should white people be embarrassed or ashamed of their whiteness? Should they try to downplay it? Are there any other ethnic groups that need to keep their ethnicity on the low down or is it just whites? Or is it the "Upper Class Elitist" part that bothers you? What bothers you so much about people who have strived and achieved (or are you assuming that we all inherited everything we have?)

 

An uncharitable view of your arguments might be that they aren't arguments at all, but merely name calling. But we understand you're just playing at angry incoherence in order to add compelling drama to the impecable logic of your well reasoned arguments.

You seem to be suggesting that our lack of experience being poor (an assumption on your part - and an incorrect one in at least one case) disqualifies us from opining (unless we agree with you) about issues to do with poverty. If such a personal history is necessary to opine on such things, then you should lay off this "White Upper Class Elite" that you apparently dislike so much unless or until you've walked a mile in their topsiders.

 

You "dare" me "volunteer at a homeless shelter or soup kitchen or food bank" so I can gain this experience you think I lack with the poor? You think, because I don't agree with you, that I've never rubbed shoulders with the poor? That's rich.

[BSA24 10]

[Eagle92 110]

I haven't read it all but I need to interject some. Both sides have elements that are correct, and both sides have elements that are wrong.

 

Painting with a broad brush is wrong. Stereotypes are not the way to go.

 

And while decisions do affect you, sometimes they are beyond your control. I know folks who lost jobs not because they lacked skills or didn't have good work ethics. Companies moved or shut down altogether. I know my grandfather lost his job after WWII ended when the owner of the company decided closing the company would be better for him than going through a lawsuit.

 

One of the tragedies of divorce is that it can be a challenge financially. I know my mom struggled when my father left. I had choices to make and some of them did include me wearing unofficial pants and socks while I saved the money to get the official ones. Took me 3 years to get 100% official uniform, and it wasn't until I was issued a uniform by national supply did I finally get a brand new uniform. Other things were more important like putting food on the table, paying the bills, and my education. Public school system in the New Orleans metro area is so bad folks who work for the public school system like my mom send their kids to private school.

 

But there are folks who abuse the system. My high school did Thanksgiving drives for needy families. Most I saw were in need. Some were in similar situations as mine. But there was one family one year that made my blood boil. When delivering the food, folks in brand new clothes and a house full of top of the line video game and entertainment technology.

 

Moral is, every situation is differnt and you cannot generalize.

[BadenP 93]

 

You know what Callay for being a self proclaimed sociologist you really are out of touch with the reality of poverty in this country. Just because you may have put a dollar once in a homeless mans hat does not give you extensive experience or knowledge of the poor. As I have stated before I worked with a troop in East LA for three years, as part of my ministry I have and continue to work with homeless shelters, soup kitchens, and food banks to name just a few and have extensive experience working with the poor and destitute in this country. By the way I am white and do not hate whites as you assert in your posts.

 

The comments you and BSA24 have made about the poor in this country are indeed racist, prejudical, elitist, and false. People never choose to be poor, most are born into it and because of their environment continue in the same mode as their parents. This is due mainly to the inferior schools they attend giving them a poor quality education than prevents them from going to college. The poor in this country are the forgotten ones, the slums continue to get worse with gangs, drugs, and prostitution and no politician or agency wants to deal with it head on. Yes, there are those exceptionally bright individuals who break the poverty cycle and get into college, or excel in sports and get recruited, but they are the exception not the norm.

 

Back on topic, as far as uniforming is concerned, that troop in east LA I talked about in prior posts never were in full uniform, and the uniforms they did have were second hand. A group in the community got a small group of the local merchants together and put together enough money to get the kids new shirts. My point was those kids were so proud of their uniforms they could care less about uniform pants, socks or hats. Twice at the council camporees they took first place overall among all the troops attending from all over Los Angeles. My point that troop exemplified the true spirit of scouting more than any other troop I have come acroos in my over 25 years in the BSA. All of these kids came from dirt poor families and scouting was their only experience where they were given the opportunity to see firsthand that they were just as good as anyone else, and that they even could be the best.

 

So excuse me for getting so emotionally involved with some of the comments made in this thread, but comments made from ignorance and at the expense of a certain group of people, who share the same dreams as the rest of us but have been denied the same benefits as us, really ticks me off with their insensitivity and bigotry.

[BSA24 10]

He's a VERY angry elf!