Adult Misconduct and termination?

[OXCOPS 10]

OK. I have spoken to an investigator here at work. I also did some background investigating, which needs to be done before anything can advance from the law enforcement standpoint.

 

I found that the guy is not 24 as thought. He is 21. I still have not confirmed the girls age, but am almost positive she is 16.

 

Due to my work schedule, I won't be able to get to the Scout Service Office until Friday. The office is a 45 minute one-way trip and will take an afternoon to get over there and back. I could call and relay this stuff over the phone. My thinking is that a conversation like this is better done face to face. However, I could call tomorrow afternoon.

 

So, I think I am going to wait until Friday to go see him in person. Also the mother who has been reporting this to me is to call me back with more details sometime Thursday. (Not to worry. She is not doing any investigating, merely getting a list of times/dates of his calls to her.)

 

More to come from the saga as it becomes available.

 

OX

[Eagle74 10]

Do not wait. Call the Scout Executive, fill him/her in, and ask for a face-to-face with the SE or someone from council at a location convenient to you - your PD for instance.

 

Or, call the Scout Executive and relate no more than you need to talk face-to-face with someone at council regarding a possible sexual harassment situation. Tell them where you are able to meet that is convenient to you. My experience says they will jump on this right now. If they don't; shame, shame.

 

Do not wait.

[dsteele 20]

Ox:

 

The tone in this thread has become increasingly more alarmed. The answer is correct -- your Scout Executive needs to be informed of the behavior. Some of the emotion you're hearing from the posters in this thread have to do with today's AP story of police abusing youth through Law Enforcement Exploring programs. The same thing applies, an adult in a position of authority having inappropriate contact with youth. It's abuse.

 

I don't care if the offending volunteer is 21 or 91 and the girl is 16 or 8. It is against the policies of the Boy Scouts of America (and Learning for Life, the subsidiary) to have inappropriate contact with a youth member.

 

I don't expect you to drop everything and drive to the Scout Executive. Don't drive to the office (45 minutes each way) without an appointment. They may be having a staff meeting, the Scout Executive could be at camp, anything could be going on and you'd have no one to talk to.

 

Call the office and tell the person that you'd like to speak to the Scout Executive about a possible youth protection matter. If the Scout Executive is not available, ask for another professional. Believe me, the clerical staff (who generally answer the phone) will find you someone.

 

At the moment, I'm not talking about the legal issues. I'm talking about the BSA doing its best to protect youth from abuse by adults. Even if what's going on is okay (or at least not illegal) to your department, it may be a serious violation of BSA policies -- it sure sonds like it to me.

 

The police department isn't there to decide if someone is a fit leader with the Boy Scouts of America. The Boy Scouts of America is there for that purpose. Conversely, if the police department has a problem with an individual, they don't need the BSA's permission to handle it.

 

Please call your Scout office tomorrow. I shudder to think what may be going on under the auspices of Scouting until that call is made.

 

Dave

[OXCOPS 10]

Dave and others:

 

I think I may have accidentally added some confusion somewhere in the thread. Let me see if I can get this thing straight .

 

OK. I understand that there are two seperate issues here. The BSA side and the legal side. While both may require the help of the other at some point, they are independant of each other.

 

With that said, I have talked unofficially with an investigator here at my department. I wanted to get his advice on the legal side and see if any laws were broken. I informed him that I would be required to report this to the BSA via the council Scout Executive. I told the detective that he may be receiving a call from Mr. "X" and wanted him to have a "heads up". When (not if) the scout exec calls the police department, the official inquiry can begin. The detective has asked me to get all the names, addresses and phone numbers of the involved parties, if possible. This is not unusual for me to do for cases in shich I am not otherwise involved. I have compiled a list of what I can at the moment. The rest is up to him once an official case is started.

 

Now for the BSA side. I plan on calling the Scout Exec tomorrow afternoon when I wake up. I am currently at work and do not get off until 6AM. I can not stay up until 8 or 9 waiting on him to get to the office. That means that Thursday afternoon will be the earliest I can call. I plan on giving him a BRIEF run down and ask to meet with him somewhere in person and soon.

 

I have a two fold concern on the BSA side.

 

First, this behavior is against everything the BSA stands for. It violates the scout oath and law. It is not the image or perception we want to send to scouts, their parents, prospective members or the general public.

 

Second, this person is a COPE staff member. I have other staff members (teenage girls) who refuse to work if this person is around. He has hit on them and they are scared of him. That is behavior I can't tolerate at COPE. It defeats the entire basis of the 7 core goals of COPE.

 

I assure you that something is going to happen and it will be soon. Thanks for all the advice.

 

OX

[nldscout 18]

I have several questions that maybe some camp directors out there could answer about this.

 

1. Who is supervising this guy and why is a 16yr old staff memeber allowed to leave camp at night without permission. In our camps if staff members leave like this they would have been fired a long time ago. Where is the Camp director in this?

 

2. Why is a 16 yr old female working at a Boy Scout camp? Some may flame me for asking that, but my question remains the same. This is like throwing gasoline on a fire hiring 16 yr old female's at a Boy Scout Camp.

 

3. If this has happened before, why has no one gotten word of this before? This goes back to #1. WHERE IS THE CAMP DIRECTOR?

 

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

nldscout,

 

I can answer your second question. Girls who are part of the Venturing program can apply and serve on camp staffs just like any other Scout can. We just returned from Webelos Resident camp a couple of weeks ago and there were at least 2 or 3 girls on staff that did an excellent job. One ran the archery range and the other did flag ettiquete classes. They like all the rest of the staff took their turns working in the dining hall as well. As long as they are part of the BSA and meet the age requirements, they are eligible to work on staff just like the boys.

[bt01 10]

You said that:

 

Second, this person is a COPE staff member. I have other staff members (teenage girls) who refuse to work if this person is around. He has hit on them and they are scared of him. That is behavior I can't tolerate at COPE. It defeats the entire basis of the 7 core goals of COPE.

 

In a previous posting, I said keep the Camp Director in the loop. His actions off of camp property are now affecting the camp program. The Scouts are going to pick up on the fact the female staff members are not going to work with him.

Have the Camp Director remove him from the camp.

 

[Rooster7 11]

This is not to take away anything from those Scouters reciting BSA policy. I dont question their knowledge or the accuracy of the recited policy. This is just a personal observation. In terms of morality, not legality, I do see a difference between a 21-year-old male flirting with a 17-year-old female, verses a 24-year-old making advances on a 16-year-old. Again, Im not talking about BSA policyI am talking about the age differences in regard to moral appropriateness. Perhaps I feel this way because I met my wife, who was 17 at the time, when I was 23. Having said the above, I agree policy is policy, and all the rules should be followed. Furthermore, if policy says that the adult staff member should be reported to the DE or even the legal authorities, by all means, please comply with it. However, without knowing all of the details (and it appears that OXCOPS doesnt know all of the pertinent information), I wouldnt portray this guy as some sort of evil child predator. Certainly the potential exists. Yet, it may be a lot more innocent than what some folks are assuming. Im simply saying - follow policy, but try to reserve judgment until all of the facts are known. And, while I agree with BSA policy, I dont think its evil or unhealthy for a 21-year-old boy (or if you prefer, man, although barely) to show interest in 17 year-old girls (if that happens to be the case). I know, understand, and appreciate that a legal line has to be drawn somewhere. Im grateful that I live in a country (USA) and belong to an organization (BSA) that recognizes a need for laws and policies to protect our youth. But, Im not willing to label this guy a predator not yet.

 

One last disclaimer I havent read every post in this thread. There may be some facts that I missed that could change my tune. But, a casual reading of this thread gives me reason to believe that much of what is being accepted as fact is really gossip (I was recently informedI overheard, etc.). Good reasons to be concerned, but nothing here to warrant a conviction.

 

[SagerScout 10]

Rooster7 -

Like you, I don't have that big a problem with the "romance" if that is what it is. I met my first husband when I was a freshman in college, age 17, and he was also a freshman - age 26.

 

BUT -

ANY person who is making other staff members uncomfortable with his/her advances is exposing the employer to harassment charges. BSA rules aside, criminal issues aside, if he's been hitting on the girls and making them unwilling to work with him, he needs to be firmly counseled or canned, period, and the sooner the better. And if the girl is leaving camp at night to be with him, that seems like something that could be a violation of work rules as well.

 

Soooo - if you are worried it might be considered abuse, report it to the authorities as per other excellent advisors here. But even if the Scout Exec and CPS are all ready to accept an invitation to their wedding, the camp director has a staff issue that he should not duck.

 

[Eagle74 10]

I am making no presumption of the guilt or innocence of the subject in "suspected", "potentially" (my words) improper conduct. Factual hard evidence appears to be lacking at this point, but the circumstantial and hearsay evidence is sufficient to warrant an investigation into the facts. My issues are:

 

1. There is a perception of improper supervisor/subordinate behavior.

2. There is a perception of a predatory behavior.

3. There is a suspicion of conduct in violation of BSA policy/standards of conduct.

4. There is a suspicion of potentially illegal conduct.

5. The program has been compromised whether or not any of the above points prove to be true or false.

 

From my viewpoint, at the very least, the perception is as dangerous as the potential reality in these situations. Perception is fact to those whose perception it is, until they have something else more factual to believe. Yet perception is often difficult to change even when there is fact to the contrary - there is often a nagging doubt that remains. That is why I emphasized that an official investigation of the facts needs to happen immediately and discretion used as to who information is given to. From OXCOPS posts, this situation has already had a wide-ranging negative affect on the program and the people involved, on both sides.

 

Once the ball has begun rolling, these situations are never clean and easy. But, if there is sufficient evidence of suspected misconduct (a sometimes difficult determination in itself) a timely, speedy factual investigation is best for all involved. "Nip it in the bud" whenever possible, for better or worse.

[Rooster7 11]

SagerScout,

 

BSA rules aside, criminal issues aside, if he's been hitting on the girls and making them unwilling to work with him, he needs to be firmly counseled or canned, period, and the sooner the better. And if the girl is leaving camp at night to be with him, that seems like something that could be a violation of work rules as well.

 

In regards to the harassment issue, the girls should also make it clear that his behavior is unwelcome. Perhaps this is a given for most folks. However, I dont think its fair to prosecute someone for harassment if its based on flirtation that has not been clearly rejected. There is a gray area. If there werent, all social interaction would have to be banned entirely. Of course, there are areas of sexual harassment that are not gray that shouldnt require any feedback other than legal recourse. I think those situations are obvious (i.e., lewd comments, exposure, unsolicited physical touching, etc.).

 

In regards to the BSA issue, I understand the policy and I have no argument with it. My only assertion was - as should be the case with all accusations, especially those that taint reputations and careers, one should tread cautiously and gather all of the facts, before condemning.

 

In short, I agree with you - If the rumors and gossip (i.e., "I was informed...I overheard", etc.) turn out to reflect the truth.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Bob White 20]

"In regards to the BSA issue, I understand the policy and I have no argument with it. My only assertion was - as should be the case with all accusations, especially those that taint reputations and careers, one should tread cautiously and gather all of the facts, before condemning."

 

I will offer a differnt view. As far as the BSA Policies instruct, it is not our place to condemn anyone. Nor is it our responsibility to 'gather all the facts'. Our sole legal and moral responsibility is to "recogognize and report".

It is up to the appropriate agencies to gather facts and evidence, and up to the courts to pass judgement. The longer we take to report the more opportunities that arise for abuse to continue, or rumor and innuendo to spread. For that reason it is vital that all scouting volunteers take the Youth Protection training to undertstand how and when to act on such matters.

 

We are not the detectives, we are not the police, we are not judge and jury. "Recognize and report" then let others fulfill their roles in this matter.

 

Bob White

[OldGreyEagle 5]

...While Nero Fiddled Rome Burned...

 

Over in the Policital section of the Forum (actually its been hard to tell latley where that is) is a thread on Sexual Abuse of Explorers by police.

 

I wonder if people suspected something was going on and then discussed it and felt it was just gossip or hearsay or something like that. I wonder how they feel now? The issue here isnt whether or not Michael Doulass and Catherine Zeta-Jones or Demie Moore and Ashton Kutcher couple exist, its whether or not basic Youth proteciton principles are followed.

 

OXCCOPS, you have a choice, either report your suspicions to the Scout Executive per Youth Protection Principles or drop it. If you drop it, can you live with the chance that you might be right and other youth will be victimized and you could have stopped it?

Actually a third choice is to continue talking about it while not reporting it. Again you run the risk of being able to say "I told you so" when abuse is uncovered, but not being able to explain why you thought so and did nothing.

[SR540Beaver 116]

I have to agree here with BW and OGE, recognize and report.....period. With no disrespect or offense intended to Oxcop, I think your law enforcement side is taking over and you are trying to, well....be a cop. As a registered scouter, your first and only obligation is to report it to the SE immediately. Talking to an investigator friend first to see what the legal possibilities are isn't really an option. The SE is trained to take the report to the proper authorities and let them begin and conduct an investigation. While you attempt to act as a detective, the guy can be continuing his alledged offense. Report it and let it be. As a policeman, you know the importance of the chain of command and this is a job for the SE.

[Rooster7 11]

If it makes you feel better let me rephrase my original statement:

 

As should be the case with all accusations, especially those that taint reputations and careers, one should tread cautiously before identifying someone as a potential sexual predator, especially if gossip and rumor is the source of those accusations. I dont care for sexual predators any more than I care for communism, but I'm not going to resort to McCarthyism to root it out of the BSA.

 

While it may not be my job to gather all of the facts, its certainly my duty to act responsibly. Due to the BSAs increasing sensitivity to the threat of litigation, they may feel otherwise, but my ethics are not completely driven by BSA policy and concerns. Despite what some folks seem to be implying here, gossip can and does cause damage to many innocent folks. Its not responsible to pretend that it is a non-factor.

 

So, I beg to differ on the point as to whether or not one should be concerned if there is any basis in fact. If I reported every piece of hearsay I ever heard, Id be calling the DE and/or the police department every couple of weeks. Lets be realistic here, were talking about a camp with dozens of teenaged boys and girls, rumor and innuendo is practically a second language. While I appreciate the BSA stance, I have my own brain I am not merely their eyes and ears. If my brain tells me that I have seen or heard something worth repeating to the SE or someone else in authority, Ill know it.

 

As to OGEs what if scenarios concerning the Explorers One can play that game all day long. If I step out of my house and turn left instead of right, the future of the entire world could be affected. One can never be sure. But, Im not going to second guess myself. If I was at one of those Explorers posts and failed to report something that turned out to be legitimate, I would certainly be upset. Id also be upset if I reported several suspicious incidents only to discover that I had caused serious personal strife for several well-meaning police officers. I realize that the potential damage to the youth is a grave concern, much more so than that of an officers reputation or any other damage that an adult might incur, but as I said - I have my own brain. I would account for what I heard and saw, and weigh it against the credibility of the source and the potential damage to both the youths and the officers. Then I would make a decision and live with the outcome.

 

Recognize and Report YES. But recognize whether or not something is worth reporting. The words recognize and report, are not synonyms. Perhaps there's a reason that the policy doesn't just say - Report. A rumor is not worth recognizing unless theres more to it. Innuendo is not worth recognizing either. To report everything, no matter how insignificant or credible the source, is a cowards way of avoiding true responsibility.

 

In this particular case, if I were the camp director, Id want to talk to the girls directly. Then, depending on what was in their statements, Id go from there...(This message has been edited by Rooster7)