YMCA Drops Indian Guides/Princesses

[Marty_Doyle 10]

Paddy wagon it is. It was assumed thatthe wagon was full of "Paddys", which at the time was a perjorative term for recent Irish immigrants. See Thomas Nast's illustrations in Harper's Weekly to see what a "Paddy" was.

St. Paddy's Day? Nope, never. St. Patrick's Day, in honor of the saint.

And if you aren't Irish, but know why one wears green on the day, I wouldn't complain.

[Adrianvs 10]

"If an institution doesn't have Native American's permission to use their culture, their clothes or langauge then these identifying attributes should not be used."

 

I certainly understand the premise behind this, but I think the problem comes in determining exactly who owns a cultural item. The native american tribes were a remarkably diverse group and not all the cultures have modern day adherents. Even in cases where they do, from whom must one get permission? Does anyone know how many Sioux chiefs there are? Which one could authorize the use of a Sioux bonnet? Would we have to seek out a Crow council to use the very similar bonnet? What if the Sioux killed them all? Keokuk, the Sauk chief, wore a Sioux bonnet when visiting Washington (the city). If we get permission from the Sauk tribe, may we use this bonnet? Of course the most difficult dilemma is determining how one gets permission from a tribe. Should every person who claims some tribal heritage (or the generic indian) give their permission for use of items as alien to them as the lorica segmentata?

 

On the other hand, I do see how some indians may be annoyed by the scouts' usage of these artifacts and symbols. The Sioux bonnet itself has lost nearly all of it's symbolic majesty from generations of cheap and hokey reproductions akin to the Burger King crown. I've seen my share of improperly outfitted OA ceremonialists but much of this has as much to do with bad taste as bad cultural awareness. At least they are trying to look good and impressive. With so much deliberate offensiveness and mockery, especially regarding religion, it seems that the OA is fairly benign.

[acco40 95]

Piece of trivia - do you know how University of Illinois "chiefs head" logo looks? Chief Illiniwek(?) of the "Fighting Illini." It is plastered all around store in the Champaign-Urbana area to show support for the school, boosters if you will.

 

Many many years ago, some merchandisers sold shrunken indian heads (real heads of decapitated indians!) They were real popular conversation pieces with some. Eventually, they were banned. Some were still sold (black market, similar to boot legged liquor during prohibition) and sellers would "clue in" customers by displaying a very small indian head logo that looks very similar to Chief Illiniwek logo now. No wonder the sight of that logo doesn't bring smiles to everyone!(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Zahnada 11]

Here's some clarification on the Stanford Band.

 

In 1991 during a game against Notre Dame, the Drum Major (aka conductor) dressed like a nun and conducted the band with a cross.

 

Then there was the game where the half time show featured jokes about the Irish potato famine.

 

The mascot was the Stanford Indian, but pressures from groups made them get rid of that and they became the Stanford Cardinal (I wonder if they had any ironic intent when they basically went from being the Stanford Indians to the Stanford Reds).

 

The band needed a real mascot so they tried to find one that would kind of mock the whole mascot tradition. They actually wanted to be the Stanford Robber Barons, but the university wouldn't allow that. So they chose the Tree. A pretty random icon.

 

The thing about the band is that they aren't a traditional band. They scatter between formations in themed shows with many jokes. Games against USC always have several OJ Simpson jokes. They were banned from the state of Oregon because they made fun of the spotted owl controversy (a formation of OWL turning to AWOL and then some formations of chainsaws).

 

So, to bring this to the real issue, where does the issue of taste come into this? The band is loved and hated by many alumni and students. They have fun and can be very amusing.

 

So, back to OA, if all ceremonies only have white boys in huge headresses in front of Teepees banging on tom-toms, then yes they are stereotypical and offensive. But if the scouts work hard to make their ceremonies and activities a celebration of a culture that was practically obliterated, then I feel it is a very powerful organization. I'm not sure if all my thoughts are tying together.

 

Anyway, people would probably take more offense if the OA portrayed modern Native Americans realistically instead of mystically. Reservations are not pretty sights. There is poverty, alcoholism, gambling, abuse, etc. Just like there really was an Irish famine and a spotted owl controversy.

 

Isn't it interesting that the truth is often more insulting than the stereotypes?

[Big_Dog 10]

Isn't it interesting that the truth is often more insulting than the stereotypes?

 

Ouch!! very true statement..

[Proud Eagle 13]

To address the point about the OA being a secret organization and this being a proper forum to discuss it:

 

The Order of the Arrow is not a secret organization. It is instead mysterious. One of the "methods" if you will, that OA uses, is mystery. If the details of everthing about OA are spread throughout the Scouting community it removes that mystery. (Though already far too much is known by the Scout community at large. Far too many new members come in already having been told what most of the mysterious elements were, and so the Ordeal had far less of an impact on them.) If someone is engaged in legitimate inquiry of some form into the OA then they would be entitled to the information they need. However, this would not be the proper forum for exchanging such information because others would certainly see it.

 

Now I also have to think that some people here talking about the OA are either not members, or went through the Ordeal long ago, or at the least were not very familiar with the origins of the ceremonies. Someone suggested that the OA uses sacred native american ceremonies. That would, to me, imply OA went out and found some sacred ceremony and then used it. That is not at all the case. There are certain elements within the ceremony that were borrowed, in a somewhat generic sense, from Native Americans. The phraseology used is styled after that of the Native American from times now past.

 

Someone else mentioned something about a ceremony in a teepee with tomtoms being beaten by someone wearing a war bonet. That is something I would like to see. It would be amusing. I think it would also be offensive to Native Americans and any self respecting ceremonialist in the OA. (Though I suppose it could be done in some respectful way I am not thinking of.)

 

Also, the point about using someone elses culture is somewhat refuted by one of the points above. While there are some things from Native American culture that are borrowed, it is done as respectfully as possible. Also, I must note that things are borrowed from other cultures all the time. I am not certain who invented the modern business suite, but it seems like everyone in business everywhere has them. American culture is borrowed by just about everyone to some extent or the other (wich is somewhat ironic because American culture itself borrowes from everyone). Now if someone started using sacred Native American rituals without consulting with any Native American representatives about it I would think there would be good reason to find offense.

 

Now if you think mascots is hot button issue (As a side note, the K-8 school I went to had the Cardinal as a mascot, with colors of green, white, and gold. The school I went to for 9th grade used to be the Cadets but changed to the Bulldogs, maroon was the primary color for both. The high school I went to had the Colonel [more like a Kentucky Colonel rather than a military one] as a mascot with maroon as the color. Now I go to a University with the Cardinal as a mascot, and red as the primary school color. Though I do miss the seeing the giant green cardinal mural at my old school, I do think it is better to have the correct color for the bird.) try the names of streets and parks within a University campass. There used to be a park here named "Confederate Park" and a street name "Confederate Place". Last year a large group of students of a certain minority group decided those names must be changed. Though they recieved quite a bit of opisition from the fraternities and sororities because all of their houses were on Confederate Place and they wanted to keep the old name. Others opposed it because the Confederacy played an important role in local and national history and we shouldn't just pretend it didn't happen. Then others happened to notice the giant memorial (30 or 40 ft tall) to those that served the Confederate military in the middle of the park (actually its only reason for being a park) and suggested it was just plane dump to rename it. Now because a vocal minority still hasn't made peace with the past there is now Freedom Place and Freedom Park. I imagine those to whom the memorial was built would find Freedom Park an appropriate name considering what they felt their cause to be, and an ironic one if they knew how it got the name. Those that insisted on the name change would probably go into a fury if they ever really thought that one through.

 

 

[Zahnada 11]

If anyone's interested...

 

There's a Native American basketball team (actually from a reservation I believe) that call themselves "The Fighting Whites" or something of the sort. I personally think it's hilarious. I think their logo is something that looks like the Monopoly Man. I wish I remembered the details more.

[Big_Dog 10]

Zahnada -

thanx for the laugh, I think that would be funny.. dare I say.... wonder if they dress him up like Custer??? Talk about tomahawk chop..oooh o ohhh ooohh.. sorry that's kinda rude, but I guess maybe that's how some of them feel...

[Tom 101 10]

Speaking of Chief Illiniwek, in the past few years the chief logo has been replaced by a block I on most university merchandise. Having grown up in Champaign I have something of an attachment to the chief and I know that several of my fellow lodge members are very strong supporters of the chief. As far as OA ceremonies are concerned I dont think there will be a problem as long we continue to conduct them with the respect that they deserve. As has already been said cooperation and understanding are probably the best way to avoid any issues.