BSA is dying

[littlebillie 10]

even though UCLA withdrew support, sponsorship and permissions from the Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts on the one hand, the University's admissions web site still advises the applicant who has achieved Eagle to list it as part of their package - it is still viewed as the mark of an individual who can run a course.

 

The savvy parent knows this, and I'll bet you at least part of the increase in percentage is due to that.

 

AND - while I don't know if the evolution of the 'post-graduate' Venturing program into something a little more involved and relevant has anything to do with it, I can guess that it may have had its own affect as well.

 

BTW - saying that any sub-population (Say, the BSA) has had any percentage of growth without also citing similar figures for the total population within which the original figures were obtained (state, sya, or national), has not painted the full picture. If a council's youth population has increased 5%, and the population of ALL target boys in the area has only increased 1%, why then, that is meaningful and important growth. But conversely, if the general boy population has increased by 5% as well, then the growth isn't really "growth" in those terms. Finally, if that general population has increased by 10%, and the sub-population has only increased by 5% - we see a step backwards.

 

It really helps to place such figures in context to see if you are really celebrating a success or a failure or if you're holding your own.

 

[Bob White 20]

The only thing I see the first year emphasis being guilty of is keeping more scouts in the program through the first year then in troops where it is not used. The same with patrols grouped by age. It allows you to present age appropriate training and activities to an entire patrol or patrols.

 

OGE is right that the First class emphasis is not mandatory very little of the scouting program is. Although rules and policies exist the vast majority of the program is made of recommendations and best prractices. The troubleis that boys come to scouting with certain expectations and the Boy Scout Handbook mkes cetain promises. Unless leaders fulfill those expectation s and meet those promises the scouts will not feel they have recieved the program they expected. One of the promises made in the opening pages of the Boy Scout Handbook is that they will make First Class around the end of their first year.

 

 

There is a big difference betwen the first three ranks and the last three. In the first three everyone learns and does the same things. In the last year each scout can advance doing nearly totatlly different things and holding totally different offices. Tenderfoot to first class is designed to do as a team, Star life and eagle are designed to be achieved reflecting the individual interests of each scout. And they are meant to be done at each scouts individual pace.

 

I see no difference between a scout leader who is trained and follows the program be they male or female. It is not necesarry to have been a boy scout to be a good scout leader.Many good male scouters were never scouts. The key is not their sex but their ability to be good leaders and live the ideals of scouting.

 

Littlebillie how many scouts are in the program and how many are available to the program are two separate statistics and scouting keeps both. Think of the Nielson ratings they measure the number of TVs tuned to a show and the percentage of tvs tuned to the show of all those that were turned on at that time. The BSA does too. An increase in ether number is good, an increase in both is great.

 

Bob White

[Eagledad 2779]

>>Tenderfoot to first class is designed to do as a team

[littlebillie 10]

Bob,

 

gotta disagree. if the population of eligible boys has doubled (i.e., increased by 100%), and the number of scouts has only increased by 5% - this should NOT be seen as good statistical news for scouting. and on the other hand, if the number of boys in the program doubles, but there's been no change in the total boy population - THIS means something good has been perceived about the program that wasn't there before.

 

at another level, if the number of volunters increases, but the number of chartering organizations drops, you're seeing something else as well.

 

measuring these things outside of context is how we get to lies, damned lies - and statistics! (Mark Twain, right?)

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Eagledad, review the section on the New Scout Patrol and the requirements for the first three ranks. Many are to be done 'on a patrol activity' or 'for your patrol', or 'in your campsite' Very few merit badge requirements refer to patrol activities.

 

The New Scout Patrol Method says that at the troop meetings the NSP meets separately from the rest of the trop to focus on the skills needed for Tenderfoot to First Class ranks.

 

BW

[Bob White 20]

But look at it this way littlebillie

 

If you have four people in your family and your wife has a baby. You now have a larger family regardless of what is happening with the world population your family has grown. You require more resources your spending increases, you need to develop age appropriate activities. Bigger is bigger. When someone asks if your family has grown do you really answer based on the world population trends?

 

If we have more scouts in the program this year than last year then we have grown. BUT we also measure the ration to the potential numbers of members in the communityas well. And increase in either is part of the measurement of a programs health.

 

Bob White

[littlebillie 10]

Bob, your example is 5% apples to 10% oranges.

 

"When someone asks if your family has grown do you really answer based on the world population trends?" Well, perhaps if I'm part of ZPG. That aside, I'm not holding my family's growth OR lack thereof up as an example that all is just swell with my family. See, that's usually what couting growth percentages are held up to mean - that things are good in the land of Scouts, and that the program is strong. Well, maybe, and maybe not! The growth stat by itself shows us nothing about that, especially when many times the numbers are being touted as proving that everyone still strongly supports Scouting!

 

If you insist that ANY stand-alone sub-population growth is good, regardless of what's happening to the general population numbers, well - I can only say that seems self-delusional or desperate, at best.

 

Would you say a 5% raise is good when there's a 25% cost of living increase? Well, it's better than no raise, certainly, but it's not as good as a 25% raise - which is your breakeven - or a 30% raise - at which point you are in fact ahead. No change, or too little change - in this example - is falling behind.

 

In this case, since part of the cost of living is inflation and part of that inflation is

If you're only interested in measuring an absolute number, and that number increases - fine, be happy, and I'm happy for you. BUT - in the long run, when you're happy with the 5% increase while the population is far outstripping that, you're talking about watching a group slip closer and closer to the social fringes.

 

And maybe some will declare that they see nothing wrong with the BSA as a fringe group - I just won't be in that number.

 

If we can't look at the numbers, fair, cold and hard, and analyze what they really mean in a larger social context, then frankly, you can't fix what they might be telling us - OR you can't really celebrate what the good news REALLY is. Either way, you only have half the story.

 

And if someone has the other half, please share!

[fella 10]

Colomike: "...piercings ok, piercings forbidden, [...]tattoos...well you get it, and so on."

 

I do think that people ought to cool it a bit. If a boy's earring is a real hazard in some activities, then he should remove for the duration, sure. But otherwise it's no big deal, I think. Let him go for it if it doesn't do him any harm.

[red feather 10]

OGE, I bow three time in your direction. ( hope you have dug yourself out, but as a scouter I don't think a 'little' snow is too much of a problem)

 

Yes, the memories of adults who were scouts are very important, I have many good ones and some not so good but that is part of it (d--- it was cold,long, not good tasting,etc.etc.) I hope that I have instilled memories into the scouts that I have had the honor to work with. It is part of the job.

 

To repeat what was said in an earlier post, I looked at a troop roster from some short years back and was stunned that half of the scouts had earned their Eagle. Are we a advancement college? By no means!!! The scouts did it themselves, with guidance from the leaders yes, but it was what was put forth in front of them as what was expected.

 

Expectations. If the bar is lowered that is what is accomplished. If the bar is raised then stand back and be surprised as to what the boys can accomplish. In the council I am in we have a program called Mic-O-Say that keeps the boys acitve and wanting to advance. This program is similar to OA but is local and is very successful. To be on staff it helps greatly to be an Eagle Scout. ( they turn scouts away because of the number of applicants) If more is expected then the scouts will expect more and accomplish the goals set in front of them.

 

I am not a hard-liner. Scout run yes!!! My job on overnights is to make sure my coffee is hot, my recliner of many colors is dangerous territory for scouts to sit in, the forest is in the same condition we found it, and we leave nobody behind.

 

Rules, rules, rules. Yes they are to be followed. But not in lock step, beware of the Nimby syndrom. (happened here recently, sad). The scouts are what matter if it takes bending to work with the scout then yes by all means. Provide possibly the one thing that may be the turning point in a young mans life.

 

Soap box. Sorry.

 

OGE, thank-you.

 

yis

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Heck, as some of you may remember, I am from Chicago where the Hawk sweeps in off Lake Michigan and confronts your will to survive. Cold and Snow are not an enemy, they are old friends. Anybody remember Chicago's Superstorm of 1967?

 

Although, when I opened the garage door and saw that 4 foot high drift 20 feet long on the drive way I may have stepped back once (or twice). Snow depths of 24-30 inches with all sorts of drift totals makes the Bears approach of turning over and sleeping til Spring downright genius.

 

However, Driveway is clear, 40's forecast till the week end so I have to enjoy this while I can.

 

[ghostdancer 10]

It is in my opinion that scouting is under attack because it is one of the few long standing PRIVATE organizations that has not bent to the wills and wantings of liberal America. It has stood strong for near 100 years without bending or compromising its moral and religeous standards. I myself am conservative as far as the "Gay" ordeal goes. I for one support the decisions made by the courts to give the BSA the right not to allow gays in scouting. If gays want to be part of an organization that is similar in nature to the BSA but more acceptable by liberal standards then by all means seek out the help and get the program off the ground, but quit attacking the BSA name to make a political statement or get your 5 seconds of fame. What are we supposed to do turn our backs on everything scouting was and is. Scouting, like our nation, was founded upon certain religeous and moral foundations. If these religeous and moral standards are in any way bent or compromised then the program itself will fall. However, if we stick to our guns and keep the foundations strong then none can take the program down. We will be able to provide our sons and our daughters(for those GSA parents) a program that is rich in moral living and stands thus producing better people. I speek for myself when I say that scouting is what made me. I was a punk before I got into scouting, then that fateful night when I went to the first Cub Scout meeting I was hooked and my father well.. he was roped in by two female leaders.. hehe but anyway scouting made me a better person gave me a whole new outlook. I still give thanks for that day, for I do beleive I wouldn't be the person I am today if it hadn't been for scouting and its standards.