Women in BSA

[BubbaBear 11]

Thanks sctmom for your validation as well. In taking offense to my remarks, or at least to what you thought I was saying, you have demonstrated that good leaders come in all forms.

 

I had hoped that my private message to you would have explained why I made that statement, but instead you chose to ignore it an take offense. Sorry, that was not my intention.

 

It is not surprising (to me at least) that so many take offense when discussing things openly. I keep forgetting that Scouting (for one) is not a round table but appears to have definite stations around it in places.

 

Respectfully, Jake Lekan

[sctmom 11]

BubbaBear,

If you sent me a private message I must have deleted it (if it was before today), or I have not gotten it yet (will when I get home). If I deleted it, sorry. I apologize for misunderstanding your point.

 

In another thread you made a remark about moving on now that your son is Eagle. Based on your postings over the last few days, I would ask you to reconsider that and stay in scouting.

 

[BubbaBear 11]

sctmom...Thank you very much, your comments mean a great deal to me.

 

Actually, I was hoping to get the goat of some of those who feel that we have to accept everything blindly. If that was the case, what could happen to the children we are charged with? That is the whole foundation of my arguments; how the boys will be affected is my underlying motivation.

 

I am not concerned with other's moral beliefs, not their form of religious beliefs, nor whether it is a concession on either side's parts. What I do know to be factual is that the practice of homosexuality will not go away (once again I do not condone it) much in the same way that Viet Nam still hasn't gone away.

 

IMHO, we have to learn a way to compromise in a way that we all win. I can tolerate anything because I had good teachers when I was young; some of which I later learned were homosexual but I never as a child had any indication of it. I am not homosexual now nor will I be in the future.

 

We are human. We do not know anything in reality.

 

I have no intention of leaving Scouting, it is the only hope I have for a world I believe that God had intended.

 

I am your friend and admirer,

 

Jake "known again as BubbaBear" Lekan

[Rooster7 11]

We are human. We do not know anything in reality.

 

But you're human too...

 

Which means, you don't really know whether or not you don't know anything, because you don't know anything. Did you follow that? I know that sounds silly. However, it's the logical conclusion of such a statement.

 

Of course, even if I can get you to admit that you're capable of knowing something (truth), that doesn't mean we will both agree on what that should be. I do submit this premise though - the truth exists, it's not a philosophy or a viewpoint. Early in life I came to the conclusion that there are two fundamental certainties in life that man cannot (or at least should not) deny: One - the existence of love, and two - the existence of evil. My personal experiences and my observations of the world reaffirmed these realities on a daily basis. If you don't recognize these realities, then we will never be on the same page. Armed with this knowledge I examined the world more closely. God opened my eyes to many more truths. I'm not going to try to convert you to Christianity (you may be one for all I know). However, I would like to say, as humans we are capable of knowing much more than you are suggesting.

 

I'm sorryI have digressed to a different topic, but your post intrigued me.

 

 

[BubbaBear 11]

Rooster...

 

I am a simple man. I choose to view the Words of Christ Jesus in a simple manner because if I try to "understand" or "know" just what he is saying, then I as a human have to use my mind to interpret the words.

 

I choose to take his simple teachings to my heart...i.e. "Love thy neighbor as yourself". In the context of this simple statement (and please forgive me I am not a theologian) I do not see where Jesus is telling me to love my neighbor, except if has stolen or should he be deceitful or in the case before us; if he is homosexual. I believe that I can show His Love by portraying it in a fashion that can be understood without interpretation...do not judge, God will.

 

I do perceive a lot. Things that I think I know have been changed many times over in my life. I am at that stage now where I am asking God daily to forgive me for those things which I perceived to be truth but was too faulty to "know" were not.

 

One thing has not changed; I have never felt guilty about the fact that I try to obey His Commandment:"Love thy neighbor as thyself".

 

Man is born with fault. He is given the chance to do what is right or wrong, and then he will be held liable for his actions in the presence of God. It is not my place to judge.

 

So regardless of what you may think, you and I and everyone in this forum is on the same page: the brotherhood of man.

 

By the way, thanks for yet another brand... intriguing.

(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

[Quixote 10]

Bubba,

 

I would suggest that loving your neighbor is not the same as holding them and their actions up as role models for our youth.

 

I love my kids, but sometimes do not approve of their behavior.

 

YIS

Quixote

[BubbaBear 11]

Yes, but often times better behavior comes with time...sometimes not, but that doesn't stop you from continue loving those children, does it?

 

And remember the compassion Jesus Christ had for all the sick and poor, and how He went to the exptreme of giving His Life so that we all may live. He still loves us even though we all contiue to sin.

[Rooster7 11]

Bubba,

 

I never suggested that we should stop loving our neighbor (regardless of his sin). This is a mistake in logic that some folks make. Judging the sin is not a judgement of the person. As you noted, God judges the person. Nevertheless, we should be aware of sin and condemn it when we see it. Jesus preached love. Yes. But, he also warned us about sin. We should not close our eyes to any of his words.

 

By the way, thanks for yet another brand... intriguing.

 

I'm not sure how you interpeted the word "intriguing", but believe me, it was not meant as an insult or a "brand".

[BubbaBear 11]

Rooster...I am not a man of the cloth, as you. I cannot effectively debate the issues of religion because I am not well equipted. God has not intended me to serve in that capacity. I do believe that he has intended me to be a peacemaker, and that is what I am doing in this forum.

 

My mom used to always tell me "It takes two to tango", which means that there are two side to every story. In order to make the "tango" both partners have to cooperate.

 

Noone is asking you to turn your head to what God (or you) says is sin. What is being asked of you and others, is to let that be a matter between God and each member of Scouting without the BSA as an intermediary.

 

I recognize what is a sin and what isn't.

 

You know, there has been a great deal of redundancy in this debate. We need to get past that. I respect your argument and the fact that it is valid from your point of view. It cannot be applied to everyone though because not everyone has the same point of view as yours, or mine, or anyone's for that matter. It is simply unreasonable for either side to think that they can "dance the tango" by themselves.

 

Guess I should have put a smiley face by the comment about being branded...I take no offense to anyone's comments here because of mutual respect. Isn't that a part of what we are trying to teach the boys?

 

Now please, this is Mom's thread about women haters, we ought to let her have it back.

[Quixote 10]

To put this topic back on track...

 

I believe women should be in the BSA, but not as Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters unless they are qualified by training to do so...course i believe men should not be scoutmasters or asm unless trained as well...

 

Quixote

[Rooster7 11]

Okay...I'll try to make this my last post. If I find the urge irresistible, I'll start another thread.

 

Respect. Yes, I understand. I like to think that I respect people. I understand that not everyone will think as I do. I understand that I can, and have been wrong about some issues. However, I think the idea of "respecting" folks can be over played. That is to say, I can vehemently disagree with someone's idea of morality and still respect that person as a human being. Look at Jesus' life. Did he try to make peace with everyone despite their opinions?

 

What is being asked of you and others, is to let that be a matter between God and each member of Scouting without the BSA as an intermediary.

 

Let's turn that around from my perspective.

 

What is being asked of you and others, is to let BSA stand as a national organization with universal goals and standards as determined by their own leadership.

 

Peace.

 

[CubsRgr8 10]

IMHO, this topic boils down to how important you consider the role model part of being an adult leader. Personally, I think that is one of their primary responsibilities.

 

I'm not a pediatrician, or a child psychiatrist, but I think it's important for boys to have many positive male role models as they pass through puberty. So, in a cub scout pack, when the boys are 7-10 years old, I don't think it matters one bit if the cubmaster or den leaders are men or a women. While they are role models, the need for male role models at that age is not as important. Come to the middle school years, ages 11-14, and my take on this issue shifts.

 

Troops are structured with fewer adult leaders, who should be spending some significant chunks of time (troop meetings, camping, service projects) with the scouts. There they have the opportunity to serve as role models in a variety of circumstances. At this level, I believe it is important that scouting provide as many male role models as possible. At a minimum, the men leaders should at least outnumber the women leaders in the troop.

 

None of this is to say a woman shouldn't be a scoutmaster. Nor is it to say she wouldn't do a fantastic job. I expect that sctmom would be one of the fantastic ones. However, I hope that she would recruit a dedicated core of men to fill the ASM positions within the troop.

[BubbaBear 11]

Koool! (as the kids would say)

 

Yup, you guys have stated the matter as I now understand it. Most women I have spoken to have voiced the subject in this very way. I agree that sctmom would be one of the great ones.

 

I'm asking you folks to look at my new thread and ponder it a while.

 

I am not asking you to give up on your stance, or even to look at it from my opinion,just to help me start a healing process. We need to begin coming to some unity as Scouters here, and to get back to the task of Scouting.

 

As Rooster7 said...

Peace!

 

Jake

[BubbaBear 11]

Hey Rooster...on the lighter side...

 

Keep repeating this mantra...

 

I WILL RESIST THE TEMPTATION...I WILL RESIST THE TEMPTATION...I WILL RESIST THE TEMPTATION!

 

God's Strength to you my firend,

 

Jake

[sctmom 11]

I fully agree the boys need positive male role models. I think it DOES need to happen even in the Cub Scout level! Even though the boys aren't as aware of the differences then, it will have a lasting impression upon them.

 

If you look back historically at Cub Scouting, the Den Mother role came about because dens met in the afternoons when the dads were away at work. Originally an older boy in Boy Scouts was in charge of the den, then the Den Mothers came into being. With most dens I know of meeting in the evenings and most mothers working, there is no need for it to be restricted to women.

 

My son was in therapy a few years ago for some behavior problems. The male therapist threw up his hands and said " I can't get him to talk. Take him to a woman." We all think part of this was the few males he knew didn't communicate well with him about anything. In 4th grade he had his first male teachers. Really nice, personable guys. Yet, my son didn't push them like he did the female teachers. Why? We can't really figure it out.

 

My son seems to respond best to "sensitive" talking with females but responds better about discipline around males. I think a lot of children, especially boys, are this way. It isn't that he was afraid of the men, just he acted differently. I want to see that men have different personalities and can also be "sensitive".

 

We just finished up spring baseball. In our neigborhood the boys and girls play T-ball togther, then split up at 7 years old -- baseball for the boys and softball for the girls. On the 11-12 baseball teams there was a girl this year. She was pretty good. We all thought our boys have been raised to know that girls can do anything boys can do. WHOA! You should have seen these boys when this girl walked on the field. I guess some of those hormones hit early! They were goofing around on the field, accusing moms of cheering for her not their team, getting their feelings hurt when she made a good play. She stepped on some egos they didn't know they had!

 

Our troop seems to have a good mixture of men and women adults. Also, a few couples who are both involved, which I think adds another set of role models. The boys see the men help the women yet treat us with respect. They see the women doing their share of work (physical and not physical). I would not want to be in a troop that has only female adults, same as I hope dads help with groups like Girl Scouts.

 

Thanks for listening to my soap-box.

 

Anyone know how to roast marshmallows over this virtual campfire we have?