Do we want any rifle merit badge counselors at all?

[theysawyoucomin']

Recently I found an NRA Training Counselor, scheduled a place, found a range and helped 14 Scouters get Rifle instructor Certified. All in the hope of following the G2SS and having a fam fire with the Troop and maybe becoming a merit badge couselor.

 

The Class is 20 hours and was given to us at a bargain rate of $150.

 

All of this was done wthout any help from the BSA, except my DE(whom I respect very much) circulating the word.

 

Volunteers spent $2100 of hard earned cash to aid the Merit Badge program in our district. Let's not talk about the two full days of instruction.

 

Today I hear a rumor that the BSA is going to add the Range Safety Officer(RSO) class to the requirement.

Hey IRVING, TEXAS, THE CERTIFIED RIFLE INSTRUCTOR COURSE IS SENIOR IN HEIRACHY TO THE RSO COURSE!!!!

 

This is another $75 and another day added to the requirement. Just how much money to you people in Irving think I have to spend on Scouting!

 

Does anybody know how many accidents we had nationally under the BSA umbrella? What would warrant this change?

 

Newsflash! You have to run a range in front of the training counselor to pass the practical portion of the CRI course. He evaluates you.

 

I'm am all for following the rules but when you keep the carrot ahead of the little burro he gets a little frustrated. I spent money and time following the rules, this is enough to make you want to say forget it! Of course maybe that's just what they want.

 

Signed,

 

Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, and very angry if this is true.

 

 

[scottteng]

Take a couple of nice deep breaths. Money one pours into ones head in the form of further education is never wasted. Put yourself in the position of an NRA or military range master that shows up at the Boy Scout range with very active shooting program and is told he must retrain for 20 hours just like everyone else. A scout range is a little different than all adults. I gather there is not a shooting sports program in your council. If there were it would be relatively easy to get your range master training from BSA. Range Master does not a MB counselor make all we do is sign the targets for the shooting portion and sometimes do the full safety instructions. Rifle MB can be earned with a rifle an air rifle or a muzzle loading (black powder) rifle. If you are wanting to establish a shooting sports program someone needs to go to national camp school to become a shooting sports director. If you are just wanting to get some boys thru rifle MB seek out a summer camp that offers the MB and the adult leader that wants to be a range master should see the camp shooting sports director and volunteer to be trained. Here it is 20 hours each for rifle, archery, black powder, and shotgun and ten hours for rendezvous sports (knife and ax throwing)

[John-in-KC]

No whining on the firing line.

 

My credentials include 20+ years of shooting, most of it in the Army's greatest combat arm, the Field Artillery. I've been the range officer, safety officer, pit officer, and battalion range safety officer for weapons from 5.56mm M16A1s through and including 155mm M109A2 SP howitzers and 203mm M110A2 SP howitzers on direct fire. I've coached ROTC cadets, experienced NCOs, and supervised battery commanders.

 

Go back and take the training. I do not care if you just transferred from the US Army Marksmanship Training Unit at Fort Benning. There is always a detail which needs jogging, or a chance for you to share a war story which will keep some young 11 year old Tenderfoot alive.

 

TAKE THE TRAINING.

[theysawyoucomin']

Scott we have a shooting sports person in our council. I don't know what he does so I do not wish to comment on that.

 

What I do know is that in the past five years that I have been back in Scouting our Council has not held an NRA Cert. Course for any shooting discipline. (At least not one that was advertised for wide distribution.)

 

I understand there being a national "standard" for training. Before the NRA became the whippin' boy for all crime committed with guns they pioneered safety programs. I have NRA magazine issues from the 1950's where they rejoice in firearms accidents being on the decline.

 

I am a former Marine, who was a pistol coach, an infantry platoon sergeant and acting platoon commander. I am a second award pistol expert and an 8th award Rifle expert.

 

I have run the range for my NYSPRA sporterifle team on not less than 40 weekly shoots. I have participated in about 12 smallbore silhouette matches(I love it but I stink at it.)

 

I understand that all that does not make a difference. It's the Cert that counts. They don't know if I was a typist in the Marines or not. And all that's OK. I took the course and did not moan in the least.

 

I have a problem with the fact that in my case they could possibly be moving the goal post farther away whilst my kick is in the air. (footbal metaphor).

 

Our council just had a major revision of the MB counselor list because I think they realized that they had some folks on the list that were not Certified. Maybe they were NYS Encon Hunters Safety instructors. Which doesn't cut it.

 

Our council has the rifle MB at two summer camps that I know of. I was looking to help out the other 51 weeks in a Scouts calendar.

I would love to go to the National Camp School. It was not until this year that I realized it could be taken like I took WB, in two 3 day weekends. I already take a week with the boys at camp I cannot take another week for National Camp School.

 

I do have a question about National Camp School for anybody that has been. For the NRA cert it is 20 hours, the next certs would be 14 hours since the first discipline you learn "train the trainer". So that's 20 for rifle, 14 for MZ and 14 for scatterguns. That is 48 hours, when do they find time for archery and the BSA part of shooting sport director in the 6 days?

 

As far a axe throwing a well respected Iroquois historian once said, "That axe throwing is all Hollywood, no Mohawk warrior in his right mind would throw a valuable tool/weapon like an axe and only get one use out of it. Held in the hand it could continuously be used in close combat"

 

Scotteng thank you for helping the boys grow by being a range official.

 

[theysawyoucomin']

John our posts crossed as I broke for dinner with it half written.

all you red legs have something in common-hearing loss.

In 1981 I was in the only TAB Btry the Corps had. about that time all the smaller '05s got replaced with M198 155's which are amphibious as a fish. That's why the real king of the battlefield is Naval Gunfire.

 

Your forefather Henry Knox dragged some smaller guns through my town on the way to Boston.

 

Thank you for your service. And happy St. Barbara's Day.

[scottteng]

I don't know for sure but I think you are supposed to have all your certs b4 going to camp school such as rifle, archery, shotgun, black powder. The camp school from what I hear more towards running the overall shooting program. ie keeping the guns and ammo magically appearing in the armory lengthy discussions on the best firearms to purchase. The 20 hours are not seat time they are basically OJT I spent most of my 20 hours in summer camp running range for evening rifle shoot at summer camp. and I like doing that so much I go up about 2 nights a week of each summer camp week. As I have said on threads before their are many rewards to helping out with the shooting sports program. I am also on call for weekend troop shoots if the troop does not have a range master, and help out with the two big shooting sports events council has during the year. Now a RSO here is the middle guy when we have both rifle ranges which are side by side operating at the same time he relays and coordinates between the two range masters. I do understand that you are in NY which has some pretty onerous state laws on firearms so I would think that the council would like having the guys that were up on the state regs at least around. Like any "job" in boy scouts make it known to the guy in charge that you are looking to volunteer some time and get a little training if you are already at summer camp spend some time on the range. At 20 hours each you can get two cert's in less time than you spend working and still have time for the troop.

[theysawyoucomin']

SHOOTING SPORTS (9) - Designed for shooting sports directors & rifle range officers of Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camps & high adventure camps. This section includes archery & muzzle-loading rifle training, rifle & shotgun instructor training conducted & certified by a National Rifle Association instructor. Emphasis is on techniques for achieving the objectives of the Boy Scouts of America related to both Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp & to Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camp.

 

This is from the NE region Camp School, held I believe at Camp Squanto(loosely translated: leave those new neighbors alone, else they survive the first winter and drive us from the continent)

 

So if the rumor is correct they have to add another 9 hours which we already figured is 48 hours not including archery. So 57 hours plus archery will make camp school over 7 days unless they are working 12 hour days.

 

The only thing that makes NY any different is you have to be 12 to handle a firearm. No pistols without a permit, but that's moot because the G2SS prohibits pistols outside of the Venture program.

 

That's until Mr. "F_Steamroller" Spitzer((ur new Gov.) calls for the melting of all lawfully owned guns and all the NYC legislators go right along with it.

 

I don't know what you mean about 2 certs at the camp the boys go to. NRA Certified Instructors are made by NRA Training Counselors. The way I read the G2SS anything that is not an NRA instructor or NRA coach is just a helper and cannot be a MB counselor. I don't doubt you ran the range but if another certified person wasn't there you may have broken National's rules.

 

Some boys leave camp with a partial because they don't achieve the required group size. That Scout would have to wait a whole year to get the MB without other MB counselors(not only at camp).

 

I thought Powderhorn Training might be good.

 

That's one reason not to got to Powderhorn, they don't certify you to shoot or instruct rappeling. It's just a sample. If you aren't going to teach what you've learned because the G2SS prohibits you what good is it?

[theysawyoucomin']

SHOOTING SPORTS (9) - Designed for shooting sports directors & rifle range officers of Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camps & high adventure camps. This section includes archery & muzzle-loading rifle training, rifle & shotgun instructor training conducted & certified by a National Rifle Association instructor. Emphasis is on techniques for achieving the objectives of the Boy Scouts of America related to both Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp & to Boy Scout/Varsity Scout resident camp.

 

This is from the NE region Camp School, held I believe at Camp Squanto(loosely translated: leave those new neighbors alone, else they survive the first winter and drive us from the continent)

 

So if the rumor is correct they have to add another 9 hours which we already figured is 48 hours not including archery. So 57 hours plus archery will make camp school over 7 days unless they are working 12 hour days.

 

The only thing that makes NY any different is you have to be 12 to handle a firearm. No pistols without a permit, but that's moot because the G2SS prohibits pistols outside of the Venture program.

 

That's until Mr. "F_Steamroller" Spitzer((ur new Gov.) calls for the melting of all lawfully owned guns and all the NYC legislators go right along with it.

 

I don't know what you mean about 2 certs at the camp the boys go to. NRA Certified Instructors are made by NRA Training Counselors. The way I read the G2SS anything that is not an NRA instructor or NRA coach is just a helper and cannot be a MB counselor. I don't doubt you ran the range but if another certified person wasn't there you may have broken National's rules.

 

Some boys leave camp with a partial because they don't achieve the required group size. That Scout would have to wait a whole year to get the MB without other MB counselors(not only at camp).

 

I thought Powderhorn Training might be good.

 

That's one reason not to got to Powderhorn, they don't certify you to shoot or instruct rappeling. It's just a sample. If you aren't going to teach what you've learned because the G2SS prohibits you what good is it?

[John-in-KC]

Uzz,

 

If you are implying that BSA and the NRA have broken their long-standing relationship, that would indeed be a sadness. If that is true, I'd like to know why. It seems to me our national liability insurance would be enhanced by using the best and most comprehensive national civilian marksmanship program, rather than trying to build an in-house program.

 

If the relationship and the training is there, and this is a mandated supplement by the National Council because of a liability issue, then we don't get a vote, we suck it up.

 

BTW, thank you for your service. I'm having a senior moment this morning; I cannot remember than name of my FATASOC instructor over at I-See-O hall. Do you know John Todd?

[scottteng]

"I don't know what you mean about 2 certs at the camp the boys go to. NRA Certified Instructors are made by NRA Training Counselors. The way I read the G2SS anything that is not an NRA instructor or NRA coach is just a helper and cannot be a MB counselor. I don't doubt you ran the range but if another certified person wasn't there you may have broken National's rules."

 

All I was referring to is the 20 hours required for each card. I made an assumption that the Shooting Sports Director would be qualified to train the people under him. There is always someone else one does not ever run a range alone ! At a minimum there is a qualified shooting sports director and a range master for each venue that is open plus whatever trainees are there. As a rule the experienced range master will have the trainee operate the range as much as possible under his watchful eye of course. as to the G2SS:

 

"All training and shooting activities must be supervised by a currently NRA-certified rifle instructor or coach who is 21 years of age or older."

 

is the section to which you are referring. I sign qualifying targets shot on a range I am running thus they are under my supervision Five of those targets are needed for rifle merit badge and for pro-marksman medal. If they want to go further I refer them to the on site shooting sports director. In our council we have a lot more range masters than rifle shooting merit badge counselors.

[theysawyoucomin']

Scott thank you for explaining that.

 

 

John I never meant to say the BSA and NRA were breaking their relationship. I'm only asking how the time is allotted.

 

What did I type that gave you the idea they were ending their cooperation?

 

I was a radio operator when I was in 10th Marines, not a part of a gun crew.

[theysawyoucomin']

Today I called John Howard with the NRA about the RSO cert.

IF it comes.......

Any NRA rifle instructor can take the RSO course by home study. Materials are like $20, recert is another $20 or so.

 

Good news.