How many is enough?

[Scoutfish]

This is spun from another thread: http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=263143

 

I cannot grasp the concept of making "spun from another thread " work. So my apologies.

 

So, I'm a new-ish scout parent. This is only my second year, so I do not know all of the rules of scouting ( written, unwritten, and implied) yet, but I'm working on it.

 

This year , I was given the honor of becoming the Assistant Den Leader of my son's Bear den. I have always actively participated with my sonand others ,while making sure I was not hovering.

 

So anyways, I was wondering: What sets the standard for den/ pack outings as far as supervison is concerned?

 

So far, the only rule I have seen is actually under Youth Protection, but it specifically states:

 

"Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult leader and a parent of a participant , one of whom must be at least 21 years of age, are required on all trips and outings.The chartered organazation is responcible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities."

 

So, it seems, if I was crazy enough to take 35 kids as well as my wife along, I'd meet all requirements to the rule.

 

I also realize that your Den/ Pack/ Council/ District may have a higher requirement. But as is, the BSA is okay with 2.

 

Naturally, I'd want more adults. Preferably leaders. I think a ratio of 1 leader and 1 adult parent ( at least 21) per 8 to 10 boys should sufice. This would allow for unforsen circumstances and possibly an emergency situation.

 

So, what would your ideal be?

Or, is there another rule that I am not aware of?

[acco40]

It has been awhile since I've been involved with Cub Scouts but ...

 

What sets the standard for den/pack outings as far as supervison is concerned?

Now, given the way you framed the question are you asking what the rule (i.e. standard) states or what is "standard" as in standard operating procedure.

 

When I was a den leader (younger than Webelos) I like a no more than a 2:1 youth to adult ratio for outings with the den leader not responsible for more than their own only.

 

Now from G2SS:

Two-deep leadership.

Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

 

Of course, forget the fact that a Boy Scout patrol may camp with no adult leaders if given Scoutmaster approval - you don't have to figure that one out just yet.

 

[Scoutfish]

Well, I know what G2SS states, but also know that there may be another rule I am not aware of due to my newness to the BSA .

As a SOP, I know each pack/den could be different.

Now as far as outings, I meant day trips.dem meetingf trips etc..

I apologize for not being clear on that one.

 

As far as camping on the pack level or pack family campouts, I'd require at least 1 parent ot legal guardian, but figure some way to allow ( with a signed permission/ witness signed/ or notorized ) a Cub to attend with another relative or designated guardian.

Basicaly, if you as a single dad have Natioal Guard duty that weekend, your son could go with your sister, brother, or neighbor that you trust as long as that nieghbor has a power of attorney paper.

 

I DO NOT want toi be in the woods camping and be watching all those kids at THAT age.

But a 1 hr den meeting/field trip..2 adults per 8 to 10 is okay with me.

[acco40]

Yes, a legal guardian is required for some things in Cub Scouts (doesn't have to be a parent but can't just be a neighbor with a note either) but I don't recall the exact circumstances (but I'm sure you could find it in this forum if you searched that topic).

 

When the boys got a little older, say Bear, I made sure that when I conducted den meetings "offsite" that the meeting started once they arrived - so how they got there, etc. didn't fall under my watch. Once at a meeting, I could be the only adult - no two-deep ledership required (something many forget) - just no one on one contact (unless my son).

[Lisabob]

Scoutfish,

 

I think if you look at the Tiger book and Tiger Den Leader book (which I don't have so I can't be sure) you'll find a bunch of places where it explains that Tigers must be accompanied by their adult Tiger partners.

 

To me, that says that every Tiger ought to have his adult with him, every time. Adult can't come? Then Tiger can't either.

 

That might seem over the top. And I know a few folks who have "solved" it by being the Tiger partner to multiple Tiger scouts in the same den (not siblings), which can raise eyebrows. But I think with Tigers, it is clear.

 

With Wolves, Bears, and Webelos, I don't think there's a clear policy answer.

 

In practice, I think Wolves probably still need a pretty high adult: youth ratio, especially at the start of the year. Bears and Webelos can handle more distance, unless there are specific behavioral issues that require a more one on one presence. By the time they're starting 5th grade, most boys should not need mom or dad to be there for the meeting at all, unless mom or dad have a defined role to play (teaching a skill, etc.).

[ScoutNut]

A "power of attorney paper" is not required for any BSA overnighter. A Pack overnighter is primarly a family campout, and as such a parent should attend with their son. A Scout CAN attend a Pack overnighter with someone other than their parent/guardian, but a permission slip from the family is required, and the Scout can not sleep in the same tent. This should be the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

 

For den meetings, other than Tiger meetings, it depends on your Pack, the den, and what the den leader wants. If the den is 10+ boys I would recommend at least 2, possibly 3, adults. With 3 adults, odds are you will have at least 2 at the meeting to herd those cats. If all (or a high %) of the 10+ Scouts are of the ADHD variety, the more adults the better. Actually, BSA recommends that dens be no bigger than 8 Scouts, so for a den of 10+, the CM & CC should be looking into splitting the den. For under 10, depending on the activity, and the Scouts, 2 adults should be good. For small dens of 3-4, again depending on how high maintainence the boys are, you could get by with only the 1 den leader.

 

For den outings you are walking to from the meeting place, the same number of leaders who are at the meeting itself are good, as long as there is at least 2.

 

For day den outings (Wolf level+) you are using transportation to get to, it would depend on what transportation you are using, where you are going, and what you will be doing. You should take the den leaders at the least. However, from my experience, a few extra adults to help drive, and herd, are usually very welcome.

 

For Pack activities, the entire family should participate.

 

For a group of 35 youth (Wolf level and up), going on a day activity, if you have a large bus, that can fit everyone (or you have each boy dropped off by his family), and you have no qualms over 2 people keeping track of 35 youth running wild, I say go for it. I would not send my son with you, because I do not like those odds, but I am sure some would. If you are transporting by car, you would need at least 6, 7-seater, mini vans. More if you have smaller cars. That would mean at least 6 adults.

 

For Council, or District, events, most use the ratio of 1 adult for every 5 youth with a 2 adult minimum.

 

Tigers are ALWAYS one on one.

 

(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[Oak Tree]

Scoutfish,

 

As with so many things, I think the answer is "It depends."

 

There are some rules about what you need for boating or swimming, but for activities in general, there is no rule. And it would vary a lot. We had three adults managing 35 boys at Scout camp - everything worked fine. The Scouts were older, more mature, and the troop is functioning smoothly. I've been on other trips where five leaders weren't enough to manage 15 Boy Scouts.

 

For Cub Scouts, we never really came anywhere close to a limit, because we always had so many parents around. I think it would depend on the boys, on how close a watch you needed to keep on them, on your available transportation or the ease with which you could call for backup, etc. And it's going to depend on good the adults are at managing the kids. I think that your suggestion of roughly two leaders per den sounds like a reasonable starting point.

[Mom2Scouts06]

In our pack we never go anywhere without 4 Deep Leadership. Because in the event someone gets hurt or sick you need 2 to be able to drive the sick or injured child home and 2 to stay with the rest of the group at the activity.