Webelos Den Camping

[rjscout]

I was reading yesterday where somebody suggested that younger siblings can go on a Webelos Den Camping trip. I guess I always assumed that this would not be acceptable. What do most Packs/Dens do? Our Webelos program has historically not done and Den camping. There have been some camping with Boy Scouts, but most boys do a day program with Boy Scouts. I am trying to get more camping going on the Webelos level, both as a Den and with Troops. We have a few Leaders who do have younger kids, and I wanted to get the details straight. I am pushing to get a handful of leaders (WDLs, asst WDLs {including current Bear leaders} and CM) to get the OLS training. I am excited about Webelos camping.

[AnniePoo]

We allow siblings on Webelos camping trips as long as a parent or guardian is there. You'll get more families to come if they can bring all of the kids, but you need to make sure there is plenty of stuff for the younger kids to do. If you send me an e-mail I can forward some information to you regarding how we coordinate our trips. It's great that you're interested in getting the Webelos out camping. It's really a lot of fun.

[Twocubdad]

Why would you want them to? How will that add to the program for the Webelos?

 

Tread lightly. I know the prospect of going camping with the Webelos is exciting for both the boys and adults. Webelos den campouts should be introductory. The Webelos program doesn't teach the camping skills boys need to do much more than close-in camping.

 

The boys will learn the camping skills they need to do more serious camping their first year in the troop.

 

Don't risk putting the boys in a situation on a campout where they are miserable because they were unprepared or spoil a big part of the alure of the Boy Scout program

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[AnniePoo]

TwoCubDad, I'm not following you. Are you suggesting that we shouldn't take sibs on our outings, or shouldn't take Webelos camping as a den?

 

Maybe my brain's just not working - it's past my bedtime.

[Twocubdad]

Webelos camping is supposed to be the boys first blush at camping "with the guys." It's not family camping like with the whole pack. I would definitely leave the siblings at home.

 

I'm all for Webelos den camping. But I've seen gung-ho leaders (and I'm not saying rjscout is one) who push too hard, trying to take Webelos backpacking and such. If the pack is camping a couple times a year and the boys are going to Webelos resident camp, one or two den campouts is plenty.

 

The emphasis needs to be very basic -- proper gear, setting up tents, building a proper fire and cooking simple meals. Just what's laid out in the book.

[Stosh]

When I was WDL, I spent a great amount of time preparing the boys for going camping. Most everything we did was oriented towards this goal. We did our pins the first year and they all had AOL by the end of Webelos I. The second year was just fun. The summer before joining Boy Scouts we did a Webelos "high adventure" trip. We canoed out to a deserted island and spent the weekend. Well, the canoe paddling was all of a quarter mile and the island was within sight of town, but we didn't dwell on it. They spent time swiming, playing with the canoes, set up camp, did all the camp chores including cooking and cleanup. I took along two veteran scouts to assist (they basically did nothing but watch over things in case the boys needed any help) Dads did go along, but had to camp in a different area but within earshot. The kids had a blast.

 

Most of the complaints I received, especially from the SM who's troop these boys were going to eventually join, saying that the been-there-done-that affect would be detrimental to the new scouts. He felt I was taking away his thunder of train up these boys right. He felt the boys would be bored once they found out scouts was just more of the same.

 

Well, 4 of the 8 Webelos boys eventually Eagled, so I'm not thinking it harmed them too badly. One of the boys actually mentioned this very outing in his comments to the people at the Eagle COH and how it inspired him to be where he was that day.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

Stosh,

Was that camp something you set up for your Den, or was it part of a Council program? Our council now runs a similar program at one of our council camps.

 

When my son was in Webelos, we went camping as a Den twice in Webelos I, plus 2 trips with the Pack. When he moved up to Webelos II, we went camping with 3 Troops, plus another Den trip and a trip with the Pack. Our goal was to get the boys and the parents adjusting to the idea that Boy Scouts go camping (or outdoor activity) every month. Siblings weren't allowed.

 

If there are several Troops nearby, a Webelos II DL can set up a camping program pretty easily - just ask the Troops if they can come visit on a trip. The Troop does all the planning, so all the WDL has to do is pass along the plans and make sure his Webelos have the needed equipment (sleeping bag, pad, clothes, etc.)

[rjscout]

I am gung-ho on the Webelos Camping, but I definitely don't want to jump to the full Boy Scout level of camping. I am the CM and plan to attend IOLS with the interested WDLs. From no Webelos Den Camping, I do want to give the boys a step up experience. I hope to get a closer tie to some of the Troops in the area to give the boys more exposure to the Boy Scout level with the Troops.

 

I had thought that having younger siblings might keep the camping closer to the Pack Level, so I wanted to get some feedback. I am sure there will be requests for younger siblings. We have a few older siblings who are in Troops, so those might be helpful.

 

I love reading the various views. This site has helped me to learn so much in helping to improve the Pack.

 

Thanks to all!!!!

 

[Stosh]

The activity I described is just a den campout, not a council planned activity. While it looks very "high-adventure" to the boys, it's really just smoke and mirrors. Packing up a canoe and heading out? So what if it's only a quarter mile, it's a big thing to the boys. "Wilderness" camping? Yeah, right, the planes from the airport flew over a couple of times but with their own dug latrine, tents, and campfire, it might as well have been BWCA to these boys. Our backpack outing was less strenuous when we went down the local bike trail out into the National Wildlife Preserve and camped out on some high ground we found in the swamp. This again gave the illusion of being at "Philmont" for the boys. We actually only hiked about 2-3 miles from the parking lot.

 

I was not creating BWCA or Philmont for these boys, but it gave them the idea of what to expect once they got into scouting. By the way, the 4 boys I mentioned in the previous post made it to both BWCA and Philmont before they got their Eagles.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

Stosh,

I wasn't thinking about your trip from that angle. If it wasn't a district or council program, how did you get a Tour Permit? Canoeing isn't allowed at the Webelos level unless it is part of a district or council program. See G2SS page 9, under #6 Skill Proficiency.

 

For Cub Scouts: Canoeing, rowboating, and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) is to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats or sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices.

 

Since your trip took place a number of years ago, maybe this policy wasn't in place at the time?

[Stosh]

G2SS doesn't apply if the only people in the canoe is the boy and his dad. A tour permit is not required if the outing is within the city limits of the city in which the troop is located. This was all checked out and was above board with the blessings of the council even if they were not involved with it.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

Huh??

 

Tour permits aren't required if the in-town trip is only for a few hours, such as a field trip. That exculsion doesn't apply to camping trips. See page 53 of G2SS.

 

I was under the impression that G2SS applied to all Scouting events. Please tell me where the exception you mentioned is listed. Are there others?

[Stosh]

LOL! Gotta love it. "Gotcha!" It would seem that some aren't happy unless they think they've found someone breaking the rules.

 

Yes, alluding to your earlier post, this occurred prior to G2SS.

 

Tour permit in town is not needed when there is no travel. Remember, each canoe had dad paddling the boy to the campsite. This counts as much as dad driving the boy to a den meeting. And to the hiking event, the parents drove them to the parking lot, we walked from there, including the dads, by the way. G2SS is also vague on how many hours is "a few".

 

Oh, and permission slips are not necessary if dad is present.

 

Remember, as it was disclosed in an earlier post, this had all the "blessings" of the local Council. If I said the council added its blessings it is because a lot of dialogue with them went into the planning stages of the event, they knew all the dynamics of what was happening and they didn't have a problem with any of it.

 

Oh, and remember this is not a bunch of Tigers heading out into the woods either for a trip to the museum, these were Webelos II's. There's a bit of a difference here. When G2SS is talking Cub Scouts, they have to take into consideration the lowest common denominator, the Tigers. Surely one doesn't expect a WDL to treat his boys like Tigers. It wasn't very much longer after that event (maybe 4 months) I took these boys white-water canoeing, but by then they had signed Boy Scout registration forms and we had a tour permit because we had to travel quite a ways to get to the river. I think they all enjoyed the white-water canoeing more than having dad paddle them out to the island. But at the time they thought it was great.

 

The council viewed these outings as if a SM took a group of new scouts out for the first time with all of their parents and did a milk-run outing. The only difference was a couple of months, not a couple of years. If these were a bunch of screw-up boys that couldn't stay on task for 5 minutes I wouldn't consider it, but these boys were ready and their parents were 100% backing the outing including attending with their boy.

 

I'm still thinking that if a den wants to sleep out in someone's backyard they don't need a tour permit. Feel free to explain to me the difference.

 

It would also be wise to remember that people can't get away with anything anymore and sooner or later one's going to get caught. Well after 20+ years of scouting I haven't gotten caught. It's probably because if one abides by the rules there's nothing to get caught about. Nice try, but you'll need to try harder next time. :^D

 

Stosh :^D

[BrentAllen]

Stosh,

I'm not interested in "gotcha" but I'm very concerned about someone reading this forum and thinking they can take Webelos out canoeing. The G2SS is very clear on this, and no, I didn't add the part in parenthesis about it applying to Webelos - that is the way it appears in the book. Take a look yourself. The BSA deliberately pointed out this applied to Webelos.

 

Why do you think the BSA came up with the Tour Permit? Partly to make sure there are trained adults for the activities the boys are going to participate in (Safe Swim, Safetly Afloat, CPR, etc.). Partly to make sure the activity is appropriate for the program the boys are in. Are you saying Safe Swim and Safety Afloat didn't apply to your trip, either?

 

RE: backyard camping. Do you think it is a good idea to require BALOO training for DLs to take their Den camping? That is one of the questions on the Tour Permit - who in the group is BALOO trained. If you were the unit leader of a Pack, would you require a DL to complete BALOO before he took his den camping in his backyard?

[Stosh]

But of course, anyone reading my posts would have picked up on the amount of council involvement in the process. Many of the things back then were in the infancy stage of G2SS and because of dialog I had with the council many of the things I worked in and around with council permission were special circumstances that needed council interpretation because we didn't have G2SS back then.

 

...and no, I don't need to read for myself your references, I am fully aware of what G2SS says, I've read it many times over the past 20 years.

 

Prior to G2SS, Safe Swim, Safety Afloat, etc. didn't apply, but getting training in all of these things are easily available today, whether the Tour Permit asks for them or not. At the time I was Nationally Registered Emergency Medical Technician, State Certified Emergency Rescue Technician and an American Heart Association CPR instructor, so I was covered with CPR certification. I wasn't at the time, but I was once certified as an American Red Cross Lifeguard so I was fairly comfortable with taking novices out on calm water for a quarter mile paddle with their dads. I was registered as WDL and ASM in the scouting program, trained in Cub Scouting, Webelos, Webelos Outdoor (council instructor), Scoutmaster Fundamentals (served on staff as well as SM) and Woodbadge. I've also had 54 years of camping experience, including time in the scout program as a youth. So I didn't have a problem discussing this with the council to get approval on those terms. I was also well versed in state law as to PDF's and watercraft safety. I am extremely proficient in whitewater canoeing and kayaking as well.

 

So I took my boys to the extreme for their age and maturity and challenged their abilities a bit. Know your audience and know your limits.

 

"The BSA deliberately pointed out this applied to Webelos." Okay, if two adults were to take the boys is different than each boy going with his dad. Does the rules apply equally? If I had 10 boys and only two adults I would have planned a different outing. I was lucky getting all the parents on-board for the event.

 

"backyard camping. Do you think it is a good idea to require BALOO training for DLs to take their Den camping? That is one of the questions on the Tour Permit - who in the group is BALOO trained. If you were the unit leader of a Pack, would you require a DL to complete BALOO before he took his den camping in his backyard?" Sure, why not. What's training have to do with a tour permit check-box? I believe that all adults working with the boys at any age be trained regardless of what the tour permit says. Just because parents drive to an event doesn't absolve anyone from being trained to provide the best quality program for the boys. Tour permits are just council CYA for insurance purposes anyway. Surely I can provide my driver's license number for the form, but it doesn't mean much if it hasn't been revoked a half dozen times for DUI prior to the event. It covers the expectations of the almighty tour permit, however, doesn't it?

 

Parental permission slips mean nothing in a court of law, but they are still recommended so that the parents know where you are taking their children. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I took my boy scout troop on a whitewater outing last summer. They had never gone before. I've got all the credentials, but still I took along a second expert who had no boy scout experience at all, but on the water could paddle circles around me. Did that person have Safety Afloat certification? Nope, did he have Safe Swim certification? Nope. Did that person have 30+ years of white-water experience and knew what to do in an emergency when it really mattered? Yep. Works for me. What check-box do I fill out on the Tour Permit for that person? It's hard to believe that just because they have a piece of paper in their wallet qualifies them for anything. That certificate doesn't mean they have even sat in a canoe in the store! I want someone who can do the job and keep my boys safe.

 

"Are you saying Safe Swim and Safety Afloat didn't apply to your trip, either?" If you inferred that you did it on your own. People on the forum can read whatever they wish into whatever is posted on the forum, especially if they are looking to prove their own agenda. I'm not sure Safe Swim/Safety Afloat were around back then, but if they were I picked up the training as soon as it was available. I would recommend, with it being easily available on-line, that all the parents that would go, should take the course, too.

 

My Venturing crew does Civil War reenacting. BSA rules in G2SS that boys that shoot weapons must be on a range with a certified range instructor, they cannot have anyone stand in front of them, they cannot aim at another person, they cannot fire without proper eye and ear protection, etc. etc. etc., all of which cannot apply to my crew. Our safety standards for the crew go far beyond that of the reenacting community and each boy must have a Hunter's Safety card, and pass our annual proficiency test before they take the field each reenacting season. This was all worked out 10 years ago with national when the crew was set up. We are now in our 11th season of activity and no boy has ever been hurt.

 

One must never make the mistake of relying on certifications, it is experience, maturity, knowledge/training and a desire to make a safe activity for the boys that will be one's only backup in a serious situation.

 

Remember, I'm the one that quit teaching Webelos Outdoor Training because the council was going to allow certification for the participants even when they had never gone out into the woods and slept overnight on their own, let alone with a half dozen, wired up boys.

 

Stosh