BALOO Training Question

[ScoutMomAng 10]

Hi all!

 

Been gone awhile but I'm back! We made a move half way across the country, from Florida to Michigan and boy what a move it was!

 

Anyway, since being in Michigan my sons, husband and I have joined a new pack and troop. I recently went on a FAM camp with my boys and took BALOO training. While in training a question arised and I don't feel it was answered adequately so I'm hoping somebody here can help clarify things up for me.

 

We were told (and I've been a Cub Leader for 3 yrs and committee member for a year), that the only camping cub scouts can do is FAMILY camping. Having said that, we were also told that if we do any camping on our own as a pack it must still be family camping, one boy to one adult. However, we were told we must obtain a permission slip from all that are going and health forms on adults and boys.

 

If it is family camping....

 

1. Why must I obtain a permission slip from anybody going?

2. Why must I obtain a health form on any non BSA registered adults?

 

If I must obtain a health form on adults why wouldn't I obtain a health form on any siblings?

 

I'm not confident the BALOO training I received was completely adequate since some of the people giving parts of the training also received their BALOO training card that weekend.

 

Thanks in advance for your helpful insight!

 

Angela

[Cubmaster Randy 10]

Cub Camping is Family camping by defintion. Pack overnighters which have activites for the family as compared to Troop camping or Webelos den camping.

 

This is from the BALOO trainers book

No surprises. Permission slips are required, even when the parents/guardians are attending the function. Class 1 medical forms are recommended for all campers. This is to ensure emergency medical treatment of any youth members in the event the parent/gurdian cannot be immedialty located or in the event the parent/ guardian requires medical attention.

 

Pack overnighters are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved sites. If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and Youth Protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

 

 

*I am not sure why you would not get a form on siblings as well. They could get hurt too and the ratio does not necesarily have to be 1 to 1, just that each child must be responsible to a specific adult.

Although the class 1 form has a permission to treat on it, a permission slip is good to have as it can be made to have details regarding the specific individual event that the scout family is attending that weekend.

Also it could come in handy too with divorced parents depending on who has custody that weekend.

 

 

*Did the trainers recieve their trainer cards or training cards? Our instructor gave out trainer cards to the trainers a couple of years ago. Same card except it said BALOO trainer, instead of BALOO training.

 

 

[nldscout 18]

who ever told you this is wrong. Cubs do two kinds of camping.

 

Family camping with the whole family

 

Pack overnighters with cubs and a parent, no additional family members.

 

As far as permission slips, thats up to the organizer if parents are there. Its recommended, not required.

 

Health form is optional for short term events also.

[Lisabob 13]

What I have been taught is more along the lines of what nldscout posted.

 

(Also keep in mind that webelos can do den campouts so really we have three possibilities: family, pack, and den for webelos)

 

As for what constitutes "family camping," our council is quite explicit that this is a whole different game than pack camping. Our council does not strongly endorse family camping and prefers packs to stick with pack camping.

 

BTW Ang, where in MI did you end up? I'm in the area too (feel free to PM me if you want)

 

Welcome to the north!

 

Lisa'bob

[ScoutMomAng 10]

Thanks for the quote from the BALOO book. That would've been a more adequate answer than the one I received, however it still did not make sense that I was not getting a health form for any siblings attending. I can see where a permission slip from a family with split custody could come in handy...thanks for that insight. It never really occurred to me because I wouldn't sign my kid up for something if I didn't have him that weekend, but then again, I'm not divorced either.

 

However, NLDScouts reply seems to be the way more packs seem to go. The answer I was given at training was: "so that they can not say that you forced them to go on the campout". Saying that, if they could say that I forced them to go on a campout couldn't they also state that I forced them to sign a permission slip????? hmmmm See why I had the questions still????

 

As far as trainers receiving their Trainer cards or their Trained cards....I'm not sure because I did not see the cards themselves, however, I did see that at the end of class they were still all put together in one sheet, which to me would say they were "Trained" cards. Also, at the presentation, if they were Trainer cards, wouldn't they have stipulated that these people received their Training cards instead of clumping them with those that received their Trained cards???

[Cubmaster Randy 10]

Ang:

I'm not sure why they would be getting their trained card either. Doesnt make any sense for me either.

Anyway, having both a permission slip and a health form could be considered redundant. However,something should be collected for every person attending, JUST IN CASE. I would reccomend that the organizer do that.

Our Pack just collects the health form, but i know most units in our district do both.

I think my defintions of family camping and pack camping differ slightly from the others. Cub camping is done with the family or family members with the Pack. it could just be with a parent or include siblings.

Our council has two family camping opportunites that they put on during the summer. Families sign up as families,not as a pack, but they do collect health forms. If I was just to take my family camping for the weekend, it could be family camping, it would most likely not be under the auspice of BSA and I would not worry about health forms.

[FScouter 24]

What is a "trainer" card?

[Cubmaster Randy 10]

It was a certification card that the BALOO organizer gave to the presenters at our training. In the spot that says what you are being area you are trained in, it said BALOO trainer instead of BALOO. I think it was more of a thank you than an official document.

[ScoutNut 147]

Ahhh - Back to the idea of KNOWING your subject if you are going to be training folks!

 

I have never received a BALOO Trainer card. It might be something local. Training the trainers at the same training they are working as trainers for makes my head spin & makes no sense!

 

As Randy quoted, "Class 1 medical forms are recommended for ALL campers." That includes all adults (parents & leaders) & all youth. You need to know about any and all medical problems, especially allergies. You also need the contact info if something happens.

 

The permission slip (informed consent agreement) is basically for insurance purposes. You can create your own, adding the info about the activity, or use BSA's.

 

These forms should be kept at camp in a central area know to all. With the First Aid kit is a good idea.

 

[ScoutMomAng 10]

ScoutNut---Thanks for the info about insurance!!! It didn't occur to me that the insurance may not be effective without a permission slip...that makes sense.

Training the trainers at the same training they are working as trainers for makes my head spin & makes no sense!

Imagine my thoughts when I found out they were getting their trained cards at the same time I was considering they were giving parts of the training!!!! Maybe I should buy the BALOO book (before our council pulls it from the shelves) so that I can just read it from cover to cover to be sure I got all the material covered!!!

Thanks all for the information and the help. You guys are GREAT!!!

 

Angela

[scoutldr 732]

"Training the trainers at the same training they are working as trainers for makes my head spin & makes no sense!"

 

Sorry, I don't see a problem. If a person is an expert in a particular subject, e.g., "campfire planning" (maybe he's a young new Den Leader, but an ex-camp staffer and former OA Lodge Chief!), what's wrong with teaching that module? As long as the person sat through the whole course, he is just as "trained" as everyone else and entitled to a card....maybe more so, since he had to do more research and preparation for his module.

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

Ang - Didn't you get handouts from your course? You should have received a pocket folder with lots of different stuff about each section of the course.

 

You can't usually purchase a training syllabus from your Scout Shop.

 

[ScoutMomAng 10]

ScoutNut,

 

I did get SOME handouts but only some. Some were handouts on different recipes to cook at camp, some were sample copies of tour permits etc.

 

Our Council office actually has for sale, for a limited time, a BALOO book...it looks very similar to the Leader Handbook, however, it is BALOO. They said they will be pulling it off the shelves because some leaders are just purchasing it, for $10.00 and not taking the course. They say they are purchasing it in lieu of taking the course, however, I suggested that they charge $10.00 for the course and give the book to those that pay and attend, that way the BALOO person has something to look back on when and if they need to. Honestly I do not know why the BSA does not charge for its classes to cover the cost of some of the materials or for the books that could enhance the courses.

 

Ang

[Lisabob 13]

Ang,

 

The decision to charge or not charge for courses is primarily in the hands of council or district leaders. In our council, BALOO costs either $25 or $35 (can't remember which off hand) and participants do get a BALOO manual at the end of the course. In adjacent councils, BALOO costs anywhere from $10 to $45.

 

Lisa'bob

[acco40 95]

First, it is my understanding that all Webelos Socuts are Cub Scouts but of course not all Cub Scouts are Webelos Scouts. If that interpretation is used, Cub Scouts may go camping, even in Michigan :-) without the adult leaders having received BALOO training. But, only as a Webelos den and not as a pack activity. Each Webelos Scout must have a responsible adult assigned (does NOT need to be his parent) but the den leader may only have responsibility for their child.

 

Now for some definitions to keep our terms straight (from G2SS):

 

The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities:

 

Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America.

 

Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping.

 

Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council.

 

A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop.

 

Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

 

If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.

 

Family Camping

Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply.

 

Recreational family camping

Recreational family camping: when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rental at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training.

 

Cub Scout Overnight Opportunities

Cub Scouts may experience overnight activities in venues other than accredited resident camping. There are two categories of Cub Scout overnighters:

 

Council-Organized Family Camp

Council-organized family camps are overnight events involving more than one pack. The local council provides all of the elements of the outdoor experience, such as staffing, food service, housing, and program. These are often referred to as Parent/Pal or Adventure weekends. Council-organized family camps should be conducted by trained leaders at sites approved by the local council. In most cases, the youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

Overnight activities involving more than one pack must be approved by the council. Council-organized family camps must be conducted in accordance with established standards as given in National Standards for Council-Organized Family Camping, No. 13-408.

 

Pack Overnighters

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426.