1 more Admin question I promise!!!

[crazymomo3]

Hello.

 

We have a CM who started this pack on their own and did not have much help to start with. Now a few years later has a much more growing PC and very good albeit new CC. CM is VERY disorganized and has lots of family issues (to many to list) Big heart but really the CM positition is really too much for them to handle. Recruitment is way down and I suspect (have been told) it is because families are given information about the disorganization of our pack. I have taken on a leadership role and am the CM's Jack of all trades and some good changes have been made, but we recently lost a couple of good scouts and parents because of CM's constant disorganization and basically mass chaos at PMeetings. We have welcomed a very great person into our pack this year who is very involved and we (myself, a DL and CC) would love to see him take control as CM. He has said he may entertain the idea, but as current CM means well, we are torn at if and how to go about this. Current CM would still be welcome, but in a less prominent role. BTW CM does NOT recognize CC as head of Pack (ie above them). CO is NOT involved whatsoever, just sign the paper and pay the fee (also looking at switching charters) I feel that a pack should be run as a business and as such, the best CEO should run the show. Any comments on this. I must say it is much deeper than it appears.

Thanks

 

Crazymomo3

BL aspires to Ptrainer.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Crazymomo,

 

Well, regards the CM not recognizing the relative position of the CC, they really don't have any choice. That's the way BSA has laid out the positions. CC runs the Pack with the Pack Committee, which the CM is not a part of. (I'm pretty sure that's true, but check the leader guide).

 

A polite way to deal with this might be look around in the Scout literature. There might be some mention of suggested tenures. I'm pretty sure I've seen renewals every year mentioned somewhere. Beyond that, fill your committee with good people. Let the committee as a group discuss the situation and what you should do. Sometimes a heart to heart is in order. Never easy, tho.

 

Best of luck.

[Bob White]

Definitely read the Cub Scout Leader Book!!

>The CC and the CM run the pack as a team.

>The CC leads the committee the CM leads the program leaders.

>There are no suggested tenures for scouting leaders in the BSA leader handbooks or training materials,

>the committee does not choose the leaders or have any authority in the matter,

>the cubmaster and the den leaders do attend the committee meetings, >everyones membership, adult and youth, renew each charter year but the CC and CR can move people about or remove them from their current position at will anytime.

 

The answers you seek cannot be fully explained in a formmat such as this. Training for all involved is your best solution.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

My 2001 Cub Scout Leader Book shows the Cubmaster on the org chart as reporting to the pack committee. It also says that the Cubmaster is "appointed by the pack committee with the approval of the chartered organization".

 

But the question you pose is only partly administrative. It's much more of a political question. Small businesses go through this frequently, when they grow big enough that the founder is no longer really qualified to run the business (depends a lot on the founder, of course, some do fine, but many fail). So how do you convince the founder that he needs to let someone else take over? It would certainly be much better if you didn't have to force him out, if someone could sit down with him and review the status of the pack, and get him to recognize the problems.

 

In the end, you would need to have the support of the CO if you really wanted to effect a change of leadership. Would they agree, or would they stick with the current CM? Then again, if you switch CO's (technically starting a new pack with a new CO) you'd have the chance to have the new CO approve a different CM.

 

Oak Tree

[Prairie_Scouter]

Hi Again, Crazymomo,

 

Having a few minutes before bedtime, I pulled out my old leader guide to check a couple of things.....

 

The CM and CC, according to the leader book, actually share leadership of the pack, although if you look at the Pack Structure chart in the book, it clearly shows the Pack Committee being above the Cubmaster, so it's a little unclear. What I've seen many times is that the CM runs the Scout related activities, and the CC runs the business activities. Everyone attends the committee meetings, of course, but I was always told that the CM was not actually a voting member of the committee, and that's how the Pack Structure chart shows it. Reality is usually that everyone just kind of decides things together.

 

I didn't see guidelines for tour of duty in the leader handbook; I'm thinking that that was probably something we talked about at a PowWow I attended several years ago, using the annual rechartering process as part of a strategy to bring new blood into the leadership ranks and as an opportunity to "weed out" leaders who might be better in other roles. As I said, it might work for you guys considering the situation you're in, and there's certainly nothing to stop you from using some sort of tenure guidelines that you construct yourselves.

 

The kind of problem you're dealing with is one where you're probably not going to find a good answer in the Scout books. I'd suggest trying to find other Scouters, maybe at a Roundtable, who might have some experience with this. There might be something in one of the books, but you're dealing with a person here who means well, and has done a lot of work; I think you want to figure out a way to tread lightly while still doing what you need to do to protect your Pack.

 

 

[Bob White]

There is no place on the adult application for the Charter organization to sign. The Committee Chair and the Charter organization representative or the Institutional head must approve all registered adults. While the committee is welcome to help in the selection process the only authority to approve adults is with the CC and the CR or IH. It also says the Cubmaster and pack Trainer select and recruit the program leaders ..However only the CC and CR or IH can approve that selection.

 

 

[cajuncody]

I feel for you. We have had the same problems and I hate to say it but opinions change (even on this forum). For example, when I first described my situation here I was told the OLD CM had to go, then it changed to people thinking I had a personal vendetta against him. So I have quit complaining here about his actions. I would, however, like to make a suggestion based on my own experience.

Find out when your roundtable is and go to it. You will find a fantastic support group there and maybe the answers to your problem. My Cub Roundtable Commish has been a fantastic help to us and has provided many answers and alternatives for us to consider. While we are still having problems with the now former CM they aren't nearly as bad and hopefully will be fully resolved over the course of the summer.

Also, try offering the CM a new position where he can excel. Be sure to give it an impressive title and give hime some award for his past service. Maybe things have gone south now but they weren't always that way. A good transition may be in order to a lesser position in the pack.

Kristi

[SemperParatus]

After a few years as the leader of the pack, coupled with family issues, this CM may be ready for a break. Has anyone had a nice friendly chat with him/her about what he/she wants to do?

 

[FScouter]

The Cubmaster cannot do everything needed to keep a pack going. Your committee members need to step forward and start handling the administrative tasks, relieving the CM to concentrate on the program. Talk of replacing him because he cannot do the work of 6 people and is disorganized is not fair to him. Rather, select an assistant Cubmaster (maybe that person you're eyeing as a replacement), and select 3 or 4 committee members to take on the committee related tasks.

[fgoodwin]

"There is no place on the adult application for the Charter organization to sign."

 

??

 

As I look at the adult app (form 28-501X), under "Approvals for Unit Scouters", after the CC signs, the charter organization head or COR signs.

 

So the CO does indeed sign off ("approve") the unit leadership.

[crazymomo3]

"Your committee members need to step forward and start handling the administrative tasks, relieving the CM to concentrate on the program. Talk of replacing him because he cannot do the work of 6 people and is disorganized is not fair to him. "

 

FScouter: What if the CM is having (has) a very hard time allowing others to do their job. We have a couple of very great committee members and a ACM who will do what we ask of them, but CM trys to "be a martyr" and take on too many tasks themselves.... We do not have the strongest committee to begin with, but when you try to do something and are not left alone to do it the way you see fit (within regulations and rules mind you) parents get discouraged from serving on the committee. CM is pretty much unable to delgate completly. I have had to say more than once on events I was planning for the pack, "I got it, don't worry, it is under control, just show up" (I am outspoken) And let me remind everyone that CO is of no help whatsoever here.. In the perfect world the CO would oversee these things, District would care aobut your problems etc... but Podunk USA it just ain't happening, so it has become the parents job to oversee this program and we are struggling....

 

Thanks

 

Crazymomo3